Houston Chron - BATFE door to door search

[jdh]

Originally Posted by A_FIVE-O

but if you're not doing anything wrong you shouldn't worry.

That phrase right there is one of the biggest crocks of crap ever uttered. Innocent people are hassled for no good reason every day. Maybe you enjoy spending quantity time with Barney on the side of a crowded highway because you have an NRA sticker on your car and having him paw through your stuff just because of the sticker. Not every one does.
(Remember the Right wing "Terrorist" advisory issued earlier in the year)

And no I am not anti-cop. I've done my time in a patrol car. I am anti abuse of power and the principle of guilty until proven innocent.

[TXSUT]

Originally Posted by jdh

Maybe you enjoy spending quantity time with Barney on the side of a crowded highway because you have an NRA sticker on your car and having him paw through your stuff just because of the sticker.

Damn, how long ago did this happen to you?

[DCortez]

Originally Posted by jdh

I am anti abuse of power and the principle of guilty until proven innocent.

+1


As IP said, no fishing. Like it or not, this is still America and you are innocent until proven guilty.

[A_FIVE-O]

Originally Posted by TexasRedneck

Paranoid? No. But tell me - when's the last time a reporter was questioned for writing more than 2 stories a day? The point is that the act of buing a gun should NOT be the action point of an investigation.

You can't compare apples to oranges. I know what you are saying, I don't want my 2nd Amendment rights infringed upon either. These ATF agents are looking for out of the ordinary gun purchases. Do I really know what a "normal" gun purchase is? Hell no, because there are some avid gun collectors in Texas. TGT member Mclarenross stated his father (non-FFL) got a visit from ATF because he bought 8 Essential Arms AR-15 Lowers. Does this raise a flag? IMO, hell yes. The ATF agents found him asked him some questions and determined he was just a regular Texas gun nut. Is this harrasment? I don't know because I do not know what BATF policies are regarding this matter. If it were you , would you feel harrased?

You have to look at the big picture, lots and lots of Texas guns are going into Mexico. Do I give a shit that the cartels are killing each other with them? Hell No! However, I do care when that Texas gun has crossed back over to the U.S.A. on that drug mule carrying a load of cocaine and I might get shot with it because I am on the border enforcing the laws of the U.S.A.

[A_FIVE-O]

Originally Posted by jdh

That phrase right there is one of the biggest crocks of crap ever uttered. Innocent people are hassled for no good reason every day. Maybe you enjoy spending quantity time with Barney on the side of a crowded highway because you have an NRA sticker on your car and having him paw through your stuff just because of the sticker. Not every one does.
(Remember the Right wing "Terrorist" advisory issued earlier in the year)

And no I am not anti-cop. I've done my time in a patrol car. I am anti abuse of power and the principle of guilty until proven innocent.

Like my 13 year old niece says, OMG! Its "Oh My God" for you non texters. LOL!

Dude, I know a small percentage of innocent law abiding citizens get harassed everyday by some form of law enforcement. But, my statement is mostly true "if you're not doing anything wrong you don't have to worry". I don't know if the NRA sticker thing happened to you or you're just giving an example. I am sure atleast one or two normal law abiding Texas gun collectors are going to get harrassed by an ATF agent. Hell, I am sure atleast one TGT member will be harrased. Like I said above you have to look at the big picture. Most of these ATF guys are professional and can determine with a couple of questions that you are just a regular Texas gun collector. I am sure there is that one dickhead ATF Agent that ruins everything. But, that's life there's always that one guy everyone hates at the office.

It seems if the BATF was up to par on their rules/policies from the get go MAYBE none of this would be happening. America has always played Defense not Offense.

[M. Sage]

Originally Posted by TexasRedneck

Okay, then, how's this:

"Yes?"

"ATF - we're hear because you bought 10 guns today."

"Yes"

"We'd like to see them."

"No"

How's that?<G>

One that I came up with and I'm proud of (but haven't had a chance to use): "Oh, I'm sorry officer. You failed to respond in the form of a warrant."

[TexasRedneck]

Actually, I did use that line 'bout 11 years ago after an ex dropped a dime on me for supposedly having a "machine gun". Initial contact was NOT pleasant, but once they realized I wouldn't roll over, they calmed down when I asked them to tell me the reason for their concern. They told me they were investigating a claim of a machine gun in my possession, and I started laughing because I KNEW the source. Asked 'em if they were askin' or demanding, and the older agent said "asking". At that point, I let 'em in, showed 'em the "machine gun" (model B Uzi) and explained that she thought ANYTHING that looked like one hadta be one. The younger agent wanted to "take it for examination", and I told him it'd be after the warrant AND the presence of my attorney. The older one asked if I'd be willing to break it down for him, so I did, showed him the safety and bolt, and we were done.

I'm pro-LEO, and as law-abiding as anyone, and will work WITH law enforcement - but not FOR 'em.

[DirtyD]

I think the point of this ditress is that the ATF is acting in a manner that is if not fully illegal then definatley in the gray area. They are not allowed to copy down the information off of "random" or even "pre-selected" 4473s to investigate without the actual comission of a crime involving said firearm.... other wise we have registration. Last time I checked I could purchase as many firearms for my personal use as my bank account would let me, as long as said firearms were not used in the comission of a crime, they had no right to question me about my possesion of them with out following the law. Knocking on my door and asking to see them wil get them a polite "no" a cold bottle of water and some casual conversation. I personally feel that this is a "fishing expedition" to see how far the general public will allow them to go. The reasoning of if you have nothing to hide dont worry does not work, I have a right to my privacy and that includes my private ownership of firearms. By addopting the open door policy, we are setting a precident that WILL come back and bite us on the hind end....

[kerryp]

I'm all for working with LE to aid when possible, but there are other legal issues involved with allowing access to your home (and if I am wrong, I hope one of the more legal minded individuals will speak up)...

Its sorta like Dracula, he can't harm you in your house unless you invite him in,

Same with LE, once you invite them in, you are liaible for anything they find. Now you shouldn't be breaking the law in the first place, but anything they see or find while in your home checking your guns is fair game and opens the door to further invasive searches....thus the reason for the laws we have in place at it pertains to warrants. Its to protect you.

So if they come to my house they will not be allowed to enter and in a kind way, i will advise them that I have done nothing illegal and to protect my rights, have to refuse them entry. Not that it matters, I can't afford a bunch of guns anyway, but I agree with the statement above that it opens the door to bad things in the future. They need to know that people realize they have rights and are not willing to forfeit them.

[shilohshooters]

The pastor spoken of in the Chronicle story has recently purchased two Sig 238's (.380, very recently released and trickling out slowly). He was told that his guns are favorites of drug cartels. "Say hello to my lil' friend!" I wonder how, in the 2 or 3 weeks that these have been out, in limited #'s mind you, has the 238 made the 5.7, AK, etc., fall out of favor with said drug lords? Just f****n' stupid. Nothing says bad ass drug lord like the FURY of the .380. I wonder how long its going to be before the pearl handled, mirror finsh with gold accents and intricate carvings edition is going to come out...