CHL Stories of self defense

[blazer]

With all the various discussions about CHL and various firearms. It brings me to this question. Since the whole point of CHL is for self defense and defense of others... has anyone had to show (draw, point, or fire) their weapon in hostile circumstances? I hope this never happens, but I took this "journey" considering this as a possibility. What got me thinking about it years ago was when my inlaws came home from their retail store business with a paper sack containing around 45,000 in cash from Christmas time sales. Most established companies use an armoured service. I was really afraid of seeing all that cash around.

More recently, I have started travelling around south Texas and Houston for Industrial sales. Some places that I go aren't in great parts of town. So I'm interested in any info. I'm a licensed Commercial Pilot and all I did was TRAIN, TRAIN, TRAIN... for emergencies. Can't afford "Thunder Ranch". But would like to here some good truths in this area.

[slider]

Dog Walker Shoots Armed Teen Robber, Police Say Last Edited: Thursday, 18 Dec 2008, 11:15 AM CST Created: Thursday, 18 Dec 2008, 10:18 AM CST .






A man walking his dog in Terrell on Wednesday shot and critically wounded an armed 17-year-old robber, police said.

The incident happened at about 10:20 p.m. in Ben Gill Park in the 100 block of Lions Club Lane where, police said, a group of teen robbers surrounded the man.

According to investigators, when a boy in the group pulled out a gun, the man, a licensed concealed handgun owner, fired shots.

The teen was apparently struck in the head and was listed in critical condition at Parkland Hospital. His weapon was recovered at the scene and later determined to be stolen during a separate offense in Terrell, according to police.

Three other teen suspects fled the scene in a vehicle that was recovered in the 300 block of S. Park Street, police said.

Police identified the teen gunman and one of the other suspects, and were working to ID the two remaining boys.

The robbery victim was not injured.

[TXSUT]

...has anyone had to show (draw, point, or fire) their weapon in hostile circumstances?

The robbery victim was not injured.

So, are we to assume that you are the "robbery victim" in this story, given the question posed?

[JKTex]

"IF" you find someone that's been in the situation, I doubt you'll get them to come out talking about it on a public forum. It's not a new computer game you got to play and in most cases, the person will never be the same when it's all said and done. The good guy gets to walk away but no one wins.

I assume the new member above posted the link as it's about as "real" as you can confirm about a situation like that.

BTW, In most of your examples, in-laws etc., there was a legal justification for self protection and has nothing to do with a CHL. I know, I'm nit picking.

You prepare as best you can but that includes preparing to avoid getting into that situation. But when you do, you'll find you cannot train for it; you hope your natural response system will be controlled and methodical.

And just because .......the whole idea behind CHL is not self defense and especially not defense of others as we have no responsibility or obligation to protect anyone. At least as a first line of defense. Having a CHL gives us the ability to legally carry a concealed handgun. We're doing all we can to keep ourselves safe which includes running, if that's an option. At the time, we may be carrying a handgun which is a tool that we might be able to use to stop an imminent threat as a last resort if we can't ensure safety any other way.

We're not cowboys in the old west out looking for some bank robbers to shoot for the reward. Anti's love to hear CHL holders talk as if they feel they have power to shoot bad guys at will like the Hollywood hero's and it does us no good.

But to your question, it comes up from time to time but you'll almost never get real life stories unless it was a case of "almost" or "I thought about".

[blazer]

good response. I liked what you said about people not wanting to talk about it. I DID feel however that there was a bit of condescension as if it were a stupid question. I don't think it is a stupid question for someone to contemplate their responsibility when carrying something that goes "bang" and can affect someone elses safety or life.

Perhaps this is not the right venue for such a question; so to redirect, I would still like to know about 2nd or third hand or references to news stories and articles. I read in another forum about a woman who was waiting on her CHL that witnessed armed robbers running out of an Academy sports in Austin a few weeks ago. Her thinking was profound as she wondered what she could have done if she DID have her CHL and her weapon. The result could have been a bloody gun battle in a parking lot where she was outnumbered and had certainly more aprehension about harming someone else. the robbers certainly proved they were less aprehensive about the possibility. The outcome without the woman having a weapon or a CHL was perhaps the best as the robbers got away, but were caught later by the proper authorities. She raised the kind of questions that I wanted to see answered.

If CHL is not about defense, then maybe we don't need to have legal concealed carry?

I am not interested in glory and heroism, but more interested in making the right decisions. The idea that CHL has nothing to do with the right to protect yourself seems ludicrous. It is not an accessory like a handbag or some boots. It is CONCEALED and there can be no other reason than self defense if necessary. Respectfully, thanks for your reply.

[jgedmond]

"IF" you find someone that's been in the situation, I doubt you'll get them to come out talking about it on a public forum. It's not a new computer game you got to play and in most cases, the person will never be the same when it's all said and done. The good guy gets to walk away but no one wins.

I assume the new member above posted the link as it's about as "real" as you can confirm about a situation like that.

BTW, In most of your examples, in-laws etc., there was a legal justification for self protection and has nothing to do with a CHL. I know, I'm nit picking.

You prepare as best you can but that includes preparing to avoid getting into that situation. But when you do, you'll find you cannot train for it; you hope your natural response system will be controlled and methodical.

And just because .......the whole idea behind CHL is not self defense and especially not defense of others as we have no responsibility or obligation to protect anyone. At least as a first line of defense. Having a CHL gives us the ability to legally carry a concealed handgun. We're doing all we can to keep ourselves safe which includes running, if that's an option. At the time, we may be carrying a handgun which is a tool that we might be able to use to stop an imminent threat as a last resort if we can't ensure safety any other way.

We're not cowboys in the old west out looking for some bank robbers to shoot for the reward. Anti's love to hear CHL holders talk as if they feel they have power to shoot bad guys at will like the Hollywood hero's and it does us no good.

But to your question, it comes up from time to time but you'll almost never get real life stories unless it was a case of "almost" or "I thought about".

In your world, why would I go through the hassle and exposure of getting a CHL? As I understand it, if I feel that I am in immediate danger of bodily harm, I am able to take action to prevent that threat.

[JKTex]

good response. I liked what you said about people not wanting to talk about it. I DID feel however that there was a bit of condescension as if it were a stupid question. I don't think it is a stupid question for someone to contemplate their responsibility when carrying something that goes "bang" and can affect someone elses safety or life.

Perhaps this is not the right venue for such a question; so to redirect, I would still like to know about 2nd or third hand or references to news stories and articles. I read in another forum about a woman who was waiting on her CHL that witnessed armed robbers running out of an Academy sports in Austin a few weeks ago. Her thinking was profound as she wondered what she could have done if she DID have her CHL and her weapon. The result could have been a bloody gun battle in a parking lot where she was outnumbered and had certainly more aprehension about harming someone else. the robbers certainly proved they were less aprehensive about the possibility. The outcome without the woman having a weapon or a CHL was perhaps the best as the robbers got away, but were caught later by the proper authorities. She raised the kind of questions that I wanted to see answered.

If CHL is not about defense, then maybe we don't need to have legal concealed carry?

I am not interested in glory and heroism, but more interested in making the right decisions. The idea that CHL has nothing to do with the right to protect yourself seems ludicrous. It is not an accessory like a handbag or some boots. It is CONCEALED and there can be no other reason than self defense if necessary. Respectfully, thanks for your reply.

Maybe I worded something wrong but there wasn't any intention of it being condescending. But whether it's a wording issue or you and the next guy that posted aren't seeing the underlying point.

Either way, I sensed a note of some feeling of responsibility to defend or protect by using your concealed handgun (since that's the subject of your thread). Using the example about the lady and seeing someone running out of Academy, it's about as easy as any other situation. If she was not in and could keep out of harms way, whether she had a gun or not, her best move it to stay out. If she was faced with what she felt was a legitimate threat, if she had a gun and that was her last defense, use it.

Maybe I missed something or read something into your post, but a CHL doesn't come with an obligation to shot anyone. It gives you the right to legally carry and if faced with a threat and your last resort was your concealed handgun, you have the choice to use it. Sometimes the best choice is to not use it. As you said about the bad guys intentions and what most good guys feel, chances are, they'll be quicker to shoot you than you would them...maybe. You won't know until you're there.

As for your reply jgedmond, I agree with your last sentence. But a gun may not be the best way to prevent the "bodily harm", but having a handgun certainly gives you more options.

The bottom line, you're obligated to nothing. You're responsible for what the bullet(s) touch when and if you fire your gun. You're certainly protected under the law and have some levity in many cases, even if you aren't in immediate danger, you just have to be prepared to know when and if pulling a gun and a trigger is the right thing.

BTW, to your idea for the thread, I agree, it would be good to hear what people thought, experienced and felt after wards. It's just not somehting most people will talk about. It's like someone who's been in combat. Some things don't need to be relived.

I apologize if the reply came across the wrong way. Maybe I buried the message a little too deep for it to be obvious.

[blazer]

Texas Five Flag Salute to you, Sir!

All thought provoking. I do not see things the same way after your input.

by "others" I am thinking mostly of my family. Anyone else? Sure, if as you said, it is a LAST resort.

It seems like some kind of training about when and when not to UNconceal a weapon would be beneficial.

I work with some people whose lack of common sense in everyday life scares me. Having been through a CHL course, it seems like there are people with CHL's like that to. I'm striving to not be one of them. (I saw a lady actually shoot the WRONG target during qualification!)

She still PASSED?!

Thanks for your input.

[JKTex]

(I saw a lady actually shoot the WRONG target during qualification!)

She still PASSED?!

That happens way too often. I can't believe the stories of people getting their CHL and don't even own a gun. It tells me they have their priorities backwards and I don't want them carrying. Fortunately, I think a lot of those people don't. You have to know how to handle a hand gun before you should be able to carry one in public and that should be regulated by the person using their basic common sense. Unfortunatly, history has proven over and over that common sense has often been backordered.

I'm not sure what motivates an instructor to pass these poeple but I wish there was incentive for them to excesize what should be an obligation to fail more of them. Make people go get educated. Don't we have to know how to drive a car before we get our license? Dont' many people get failed because they can't prove proficiency behind the wheel?

Oh well.... in regards for "when" is the right time to draw your weapon, I think in a situation like that, at that point it's coming out in time to do what I need to do. If things clean themselves up and I don't need it, I'm not concerned about making someone uncomfortable because they saw my gun; the law protects us there also.

I also practice drawing from time to time. It helps to have those mechanics down when and if the time comes. I just hope my practice is the only time I have to draw but if I have to, I can do it quickly, smoothly and effectivly.

[txinvestigator]

I'm not sure what motivates an instructor to pass these poeple but I wish there was incentive for them to excesize what should be an obligation to fail more of them.

I can help you with that. DPS mandates the course. It matters not if they hit someone elses target. If they shoot a 175 or higher they pass. That said, if they are so unsafe that I don't allow them to shoot then they cannot pass. I have yet to remove a CHL student for lack of safety. (removed plenty of guards).

And this brings up an interesting dichotomy, at least to me. We handgun owners talk about the 2nd and our "rights", yet we talk about requiring others to be able to perform at least as well as "us" before we would afford them the same rights. ????

[Morgan]

I think a knee jerk reaction based on the fact that I doubt ANY of us want people who aren't competent to handle a gun, let alone fire it, to be carrying one around. I defend their RIGHT to do so, and with my 2nd Amendment right, I protect and use my 1st Amendment right to say, "Jeeze, Louise, I sure WISH that person would leave the gun at home."

[JKTex]

And this brings up an interesting dichotomy, at least to me. We handgun owners talk about the 2nd and our "rights", yet we talk about requiring others to be able to perform at least as well as "us" before we would afford them the same rights. ????

I'm not saying as good as us/you/me/them, I mean they appear to be comfortable in basic gun handling, don't group 24" on the 3 yard and like a story or 2 we've heard of other scary things like people that don't own or ever have shot a gun and can't show proficiency in any way, without real time basic instruction.

Most of that is something each person should consider, but some of it seems to be something that should be below the bar the State sets. There are rights, and there are rights with responsibility which is something no government should have to regulate I suppose.

I would however, support stiffening up the proficiency requirements including to include some proficiency in handling and safety.

[JKTex]

I think a knee jerk reaction based on the fact that I doubt ANY of us want people who aren't competent to handle a gun, let alone fire it, to be carrying one around. I defend their RIGHT to do so, and with my 2nd Amendment right, I protect and use my 1st Amendment right to say, "Jeeze, Louise, I sure WISH that person would leave the gun at home."

That's another way to put it.

[txinvestigator]

I would however, support stiffening up the proficiency requirements including to include some proficiency in handling and safety.

That reminds me of an interesting story;

When I took my initial CHL Instructor course DPS had several of the original authors of the CHL bill as well as those DPS employees charged for making the curriculum speak at the class.

Once DPS had the course of fire designed several of the legislators and others observed it. DPS was told to make it easier, and what you have today is the result. Wouldn't you love to know what that course of fire was?


As an instructor I can remove a person from the range for handing and safety reasons. Obviously if they don't shoot, they cannot get a TR100.

Some instructors, I think, go too far. I know of one who failed a woman who could not load her own magazines (she was elderly and had strangth and dexterity issues. Her husband keep the weapon up). We are not teaching a tactical course, and the CHL laws do not require a person to be able to load their own magazines.

[tex45acp]

During qualification of my CHL many years ago, there was an older gentleman who suffered from, I forget the proper medical term, the shakes. He qualified with a 176 but it looked like he had shot the target with a shotgun and 00 buck from the 15 yard line.

There was a much younger fellow that made the comment, he thought was quiet enough not to be heard by the senior citizen the there was no threat to the bad guys from this guy. The senior citizen then turned to his target and put 5 shots into the head area. Needless to say the younger fellow shut up and actually walked away. I just had to laugh.

[DoubleActionCHL]

During qualification of my CHL many years ago, there was an older gentleman who suffered from, I forget the proper medical term, the shakes. He qualified with a 176 but it looked like he had shot the target with a shotgun and 00 buck from the 15 yard line.

There was a much younger fellow that made the comment, he thought was quiet enough not to be heard by the senior citizen the there was no threat to the bad guys from this guy. The senior citizen then turned to his target and put 5 shots into the head area. Needless to say the younger fellow shut up and actually walked away. I just had to laugh.

Yeah, I get some young guys who like to make smart-ass comments about other shooters from time to time. I usually make a special effort to point out what they're doing wrong... loudly.

[blazer]

I understand that skill does not necessarily overlap with civil rights. I just got my CHL and now I have been running some "what if?" scenarios in my head. Now I am paying attention to businesses that might be posting that firearms are not allowed... etc.

Also, I am realizing the great responsibility to know when NOT to unconceal my weapon. I'm making sure that I don't really change my lifestyle based on my having a loaded gun on my person. I still do not want to go down a dark alley or be anywhere looking for trouble.

I call on industrial customers who are not in very good parts of Houston. So If I had a flat or a breakdown, I might feel a little less naked.

Things to consider if, heaven forbid, I ever do have to defend myself are things like:

Can I hit what I'm aiming at or will I just escalate things if the bad guy has more bullets or is a better shot than me?

If I did get in that situation, how will I avoid hitting whoever might be BEHIND the bad guy.

Will I make the right decision in drawing my gun at all?

Will I forget to disarm myself before going to the courthouse to pay my taxes?

it opens up a can of worms that makes me realize what a HUGE responsibility it is. I still think that guns are JUST COOL, but still prefer hunting or shooting at cans and paper targets.

I ramble...

"Sometimes I sits and thinks...other times, I just sits!"

[DoubleActionCHL]

I understand that skill does not necessarily overlap with civil rights. I just got my CHL and now I have been running some "what if?" scenarios in my head. Now I am paying attention to businesses that might be posting that firearms are not allowed... etc.

Also, I am realizing the great responsibility to know when NOT to unconceal my weapon. I'm making sure that I don't really change my lifestyle based on my having a loaded gun on my person. I still do not want to go down a dark alley or be anywhere looking for trouble.

I call on industrial customers who are not in very good parts of Houston. So If I had a flat or a breakdown, I might feel a little less naked.

Things to consider if, heaven forbid, I ever do have to defend myself are things like:

Can I hit what I'm aiming at or will I just escalate things if the bad guy has more bullets or is a better shot than me?

If I did get in that situation, how will I avoid hitting whoever might be BEHIND the bad guy.

Will I make the right decision in drawing my gun at all?

Will I forget to disarm myself before going to the courthouse to pay my taxes?

it opens up a can of worms that makes me realize what a HUGE responsibility it is. I still think that guns are JUST COOL, but still prefer hunting or shooting at cans and paper targets.

I ramble...

"Sometimes I sits and thinks...other times, I just sits!"

Mighty astute! Is this a result of a good CHL instructor, or are you just a bright guy?

[Charley]

No big stories about defense, but a couple of times I'm glad I was carrying. Not long after getting our CHLs Mrs. Charley and were leaving a grocery store, and were hit upon by a very agressive panhandler.He was going on and on, whle we were trying to get clear. He had the shakes, and looked like he was into meth. Claimed he was from out of town, truck broke down. etc. Pretty much the same panhanlder's story all over. I was manuvering him around so the brick building was behind him, and if I had to shoot it would be less of a safety issue. He finished with "if someone doesn't give me some money I don't know WHAT I'LL DO". He stuck his hand in his pocket. Talk about adrenaline, I was ready to draw and fire, but worked on calming him down. Finally gave him $10. Don't know to this day what was in his pocket, but $10 was cheap compared to shooting someone.

Second time Mrs. Charley and I were with another couple at the Spaghetti Warehouse in SA, left about 10:30 PM. Again, hit by an agressive panhandler "you got some money for me!?". The other couple hauled ass to the car, Mrs. Charley wasn't carrying due to her mode of dress, leaving me in the rear. Mr. panhandler was comiong strong, almost running, when I pulled up my shirttail to access my belly band, he decided he needed to be somewhere else.
Never drew in either instance, but glad it was there, just in case.

Class stories? Initial class and every renewal has people in them who I'm very uncomfortable about having sharp sticks, let alone a firearm.
First class, an elderly gentleman was going to qualify with a bringback P38. He droned on and on to the instructors, and anyone who would listen about what a superior handgun it was. I felt sorry for the man, he was obviously a vet, and the bringback was from his time in the ETO, either WWII or immediate postwar. He made a great show of blacking the sights (obviously a rifle competitor at one time), shooting glove, etc, etc. First string of fire, his P38 wouldn't fire. I'm a pretty decent home gunsmith, and I figure it was a broken firing pin, or an incompatable pin (there were a couple of changed to the series, and parts don't always interchange between the mods. I just kept quiet, and he shot the course with a loaner...scored about 180.
Second guy was going to shoot the course with a Bryco .380. Great idea, about the fifth round a good chunk of the slide and ejector blasted skywards ( luckily mostly downrange!) Instructor went to his truck, got a very nice PPK to let him finsh with. Couple minutes of intruction, and the shooter was ready. He cycled the slide, and forgot to hold on to the grip when he let the slide go. Gun takes a four foot arc, out onto the gravel. If it were my gun I would have been really, really unhappy!

[JKTex]

Finally gave him $10.

So you proved to him that escalating aggression will get the result he wants?