Claude Werner snub nosed revolver class, K R Training 2010

[fm2]

I was fortunate to attend a great training class Feb. 27-28 hosted by K R training. The instructor for the class was Claude Werner. He is an IDPA Master level shooter and been carrying a snubby since 1980. He was first a student at Rogers Shooting School later becoming the Chief Instructor there. For those who haven’t heard of the Rogers school, it’s probably the best pure shooting school available to civvies. Rogers Shooting School - Reactive Shooting Training
He is one of only two instructors that I know of that teach a specific class for the snub nosed revolver. He has really put a lot of effort into organizing his years of experience and analysis into a very well structured class.

The first day we started with some lecture. We covered some background material, targets that we were going to be using, and some accuracy standards. Claude noted some characteristics for the Snubby as:

Advantages:
Small & light weight
The failure to fire malfunction drill is simple, pull the trigger again.
The manual of arms is easily taught to no dedicated personnel.
Functions fine with low powered ammo.
Better than autoloaders for pocket carry.
Can shoot through pocket if needed.
Dry fires well.

Disadvantages:
Sights are small.
Long trigger pull
Ammo capacity is low.
Difficult to reload.
Remedial action is complex, usually needed tools, bench, etc…

After the lecture & safety briefing we headed to the range.
Claude told us the drill we were to shoot and then demo’ed the drill for us. That was a great teaching method. Everyone had plenty of time to watch the drill and get the details down for the stance, grip, trigger press etc... We shot the DEA dot targets dry fire first then we loaded up and shot 1 dot with 1 round, spin the cylinder, 2 rounds, spin the cylinder and 2 rounds. ( known as ball & dummy drill) We completed this for 3 dots.

This is a great way to get immediate visual feedback, a very important learning tool. If you yanked the trigger you pulled the shot out of the dot or you saw the whole dot and heard a click
We reloaded using loose ammo in the pocket. It was good to practice this as sometimes loading devices may let go of their rounds in your pocket and you may be forced to reload with loose ammo. Claude emphasized not getting “task fixated” when loading the gun, meaning load one or two rounds look at the target, load 1, look at the target, etc.. until loaded.
We shot some more drills using photo targets, more dots, and finished our shooting with the Nevada CHL test. Everyone passed the test without a problem. We also shot our carry ammo for accuracy at 3 and 5 yards. This was valuable to test where our ammo shot in relation to our sights.
We finished up the day with lecture and discussion about different grips, holsters, sight modifications, carry ammo thoughts, lasers, maintenance, and dry fire routines.


The class was solidly rooted in performing the basics and progressed in a structured way throughout the day. Starting with two handed shooting aimed fire and progressing to presentation from the holster.

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The second day we started with a very brief lecture and got on to the advanced shooting portion. We shot the DEA dot targets again. First we shot them dominant hand only. This really drove home the need to work the trigger smoothly and keep the sights aligned. We moved on to non-dominant hand shooting of the same drills. Some may think that may be a low priority, but Claude noted multiple examples of peoples dominant hand getting injured and using the non-dominant run the gun became extremely important.

Next we added drawstroke to the dominant hand and the non-dominant hand drills. We were taught a few ways to draw one handed using the non-dominant hand. Those methods will work for other pistols as well.

Then we got to apply those marksmanship skills to a more realistic situation. We shot a hostage taker target. That was set up with a photo target of a bad guy holding a gun and a photo target no shoot or hostage target shielding the bad guy. This left only a small amount (about ¼ ) of the bad guys chest and the head as available targets.
Next we had some fun shooting a scenario based on a real event. It was set up as a mirror image method. What that means is two people were on the firing line at the same time shooting targets downrange and each person had a proxy target (mirror of themselves).
On one end of the firing line the good guy had two bad guy targets to shoot (a photo target of bad guy holding a hostage and a steel knockdown target). The steel target was the proxy for the other shooter on the line. He had to shoot the paper first, then the steel target.
On the other end of the firing line the other shooter had one steel knockdown target (the good guys proxy) to shoot. The good guy got to start on the range officers command, the other shooter couldn’t start until he heard the good guy fire. This was an excellent scenario set up to run. It emphasized getting accurate hits quickly and an unknown time limit. The person who shot their steel target down first was judged to have survived.

After lunch we de-geared of all our live stuff, and did a few force on force scenarios. A hostage taker and a one like the live fire scenario. The wind played havoc with our paintball rounds' (code eagle) accuracy, but it was a great learning tool. I think any defensive class should have a force on force component.

We finished up the day with an outstanding lecture and PowerPoint presentation “American Gunfights”. I thought this was a very valuable lecture. I really liked how Claude started out with definitions of the vocabulary to be used for armed encounter, shooting, gunfight, and gun battle. Without definitive agreed upon terms we really end up with misrepresentations and misunderstood data and conjecture. You can hardly move a discussion forward much less analyze situations and progress with effective concepts to solve the situations using that kind of data.

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I really enjoyed the class. The shooting and gun handling really stressed the mastering the basic skills. The dots we shot were 3.5” on the DEA dot targets. Law Enforcement Targets, Inc.: DEA DOT COMMAND TRAINING TARGET These were shot from 3 and 5 yards. This offered enough difficulty that if you yanked on the trigger or disturbed the sight alignment you could easily put a shot out of the dot. Then when we shot the photo targets of the “bad dude” Law Enforcement Targets, Inc.: PHOTO TARGET WITH Q & ANATOMY TARGET from 5 and 7 yards we were able to keep our groups tight due to aiming at a spot on the target and not aiming at the whole bad dude. Claude put it as aim for something particular, the point of the V on the undershirt, the button, and that really makes a big difference in your performance. This concept translates to the real world where you may not have a full value target available.


The lectures and advice on gear, and training were extremely valuable as well. Claude draws on his database of 3000 shooting incidents, his experience carrying the snub concealed, shooting the snubby in many IDPA competitions and his teaching at Rogers to offer a lot of insight and hard won experience to the student.
It was a great training weekend the weather was fantastic and I learned much in the class. It was great to train with friends again at K R Training and make some new friends as well. Everyone contributed positively to the overall class.

I really am happy I was finally able to meet Claude in person. I have talked with him online for about 4 years and had no hesitation in signing up for the class. With a little work we may be able to get him to come back and teach this class or one of his other offerings. Anyone interested? I know I am.

[Texas42]

I Advantages:
Small & light weight
The failure to fire malfunction drill is simple, pull the trigger again.
The manual of arms is easily taught to no dedicated personnel.
Functions fine with low powered ammo.
Better than autoloaders for pocket carry.
Can shoot through pocket if needed. ..

I can't help myself. . .but I see this so often.

Is revolver ammo not reliable? Do people forget to load all the cylinders? Seems like people seem to make such a big point of this when extolling a revolver's virtue, but it seems such a moot point. I've never had a bad primer on a factory load (I've messed up a few of my reloads, but that was operator error). A possible failure to feed in an auto maybe.

I just hear this so often and I don't know why.

[Texas42]

It does seem like a very cool class.

[fm2]

Is revolver ammo not reliable? Do people forget to load all the cylinders? Seems like people seem to make such a big point of this when extolling a revolver's virtue, but it seems such a moot point.I've never had a bad primer on a factory load (I've messed up a few of my reloads, but that was operator error).

I think revolver ammo is as reliable as ammo can be. There can always be a problem that's related to the ammo, like a primer loaded backwards, anvil missing, or some liquid (oil,water, gun cleaner, etc...) getting in the primer pocket. Just like you've experienced with operator error, it can happen at the factory.

A possible failure to feed in an auto maybe.

Malfunction drills for autos can be dependant on the gun. Failure to feed can be a little different than fauilure to fire.
Failure to fire on striker fired and SA autos is tap-rack, on DA/SA or DAO, press the trigger again and if that doesn't solve it, tap-rack. It's not too difficult, but it takes time.

I think this is what most authors are talking about when they say failure to fire malfunction drill is simple for revolvers. You press the trigger again and you get a chance to fire a new round. You don't need to take a hand off the gun or move the gun out of your eye-line.

Think about working the drill with something that's about the same size as a j-frame like a Walther PPK, and it's a little more difficult. Especially if your pinky hangs off the bottom of the grip on the auto-loader.

[Texas42]

I was just teasing you revolver guys a little.

I know there is probably some bad primers out there in factory ammo, but I don't think it is something to worry about. They have really good quality control (or they'd be out of business) I've mabe heard a couple of times (never actually seen) a squib load in factory ammo. That situations leaves you screwed if your firing an auto or revovler. Most likely your gonna blow your gun up. . . AND you actually need to use that gun. Still the chance of that happening is very small.

I just find it funny that people always make a big deal out of something that is a non-issue 99.999% of the time. As I said, I was just teasing you. : P

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I know there is probably some bad primers out there in factory ammo, but I don't think it is something to worry about. They have really good quality control (or they'd be out of business) I've mabe heard a couple of times (never actually seen) a squib load in factory ammo. That situations leaves you screwed if your firing an auto or revovler. Most likely your gonna blow your gun up. . . AND you actually need to use that gun. Still the chance of that happening is very small.

No problem. I agree that it's not some thing to worry about, but you need to have a plan to remedy the problem.

I think a primer contaminated with water, etc... is a more likely issue than a bad primer or a squib load is. If you have a squib load, then you need to have a plan then as well.

[Texas42]

No problem. I agree that it's not some thing to worry about, but you need to have a plan to remedy the problem.

I think a primer contaminated with water, etc... is a more likely issue than a bad primer or a squib load is. If you have a squib load, then you need to have a plan then as well.

hmm. . . maybe I could test this.

Take some ammo, put it in water for a couple days, pulll the bullet/powder and see if the primer goes bang. . . .wouldn't be that hard, just need a bucket of water. I don't feel comfortable putting it in my gun. Maybe the match test for the powder?

As for a squib load, I think the answer is to have a BUG. . . or run screaming like a girl. I do have a pretty impressive voice, if I do say so myself.

[fm2]

I found another student has a blog with an AAR from the class. Here: Snub Nose Stuff From Hsoi