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Trump to enforce 14th Amendment

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  • diesel1959

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    Personally, I feel it’s outside of the presidents scope.




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    I get that . . . and there's a plethora of legislators and legal scholars who agree with that line of thinking. However, I would say that there are several avenues to get to a solution.

    (1) Keep in mind, the job of the executive is to execute the law of the land, as best they understand it to be in light of Supreme Court precedent. Usually, questions around how to execute on a law deals with a new law and everyone walks around it gingerly. However, it is just as legitimate for the executive to examine old laws and view whether or not what has been done fully executes the letter of the law, or somehow "cheats" the People out of part of what the law states/protects/provides/etc. In this case, folks are stirred up simply because the law Trump is planning on issuing an EO about happens to be an 1866 amendment--the 14A--and some folks seem to think that the way it has been understood and executed is somehow sacrosanct. It is not, and a wrong/incomplete reading of even an old law is just as needful of being newly executed as a new law. So, by preparing an EO and fully executing on his reading of the conjunctive phrase in the 14A is completely lawful so long as his EO doesn't run afoul of Supreme Court precedent. It remains to be seen how deep Trump will bite this apple; however, what is clear is that Wong Kim Ark does NOT answer the question of what the 14A means with respect to the citizenship of a child born here of illegal aliens. That question was NOT before the Court.

    (2) It's also true that this new reading regarding the 14A can be accomplished by a Congressional law that accomplishes what Section 5 of that amendment states--"enforcing, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article." So, Paul Ryan and Charles Grassley are correct in regard to the fact that Congress CAN address this issue and correct it. However, they are incorrect in thinking that this is the ONLY way the problem may be addressed.

    (3) It is also the case that Congress can pass an amendment for ratification that seeks to address this situation of Birth Tourism or Anchor Babies. In fact, this option may very well be what happens . . . but ONLY because either (1) or (2) above has been attempted and subsequently shot down in a legal challenge that winds up in the Supreme Court, assuming the Court rejects the newly-refined reading. If the Court would concur with DJT's newly-refined reading of the 14A, then it can be said that DJT was correct in (1) above, or (2) above, assuming the Congress acts under Section 5.

    (4) It is also the case that a Convention of States can be started and over the course of said convention, an amendment can be prepared and then submitted to the several States for ratification. Just because this hasn't yet been attempted doesn't mean it is not in our future. Stand by for more!
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    diesel1959

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    Personally, I feel it’s outside of the presidents scope.




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    It's non-traditional, I grant you. However, it is most certainly within the President's wheelhouse. This is specifically because it deals with reading a law and executing that law. It's just that the law he's executing upon is almost seventeen decades old. This usually doesn't happen in this manner; however, it doesn't mean it's not legitimate.
     

    diesel1959

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    Here is a question.

    If just being born on US soil automatically means that they are, by that occurance, subject to the jurisdiction of the US... then what’s with even including that clause?

    If the “and” doesn’t somehow mean that both conditions should be fulfilled, then what is it doing in there? I mean, god forbid there should be an “and” gunking up the second amendment... thank god for that.

    I mean, if they had replaced “and” with “thus”, you’ve sold me. Until the text is further clarified, I can only read the text following the “and” as a presently vague condition to be defined and fulfilled before granting citizenship.
    Part of the reason the clause was included was to specifically cover a situation where a child was born of US citizen parents overseas. The parents are "subject to the jurisdiction of the US--because they're citizens--and the child born takes that US citizenship. And in almost every nation in the world, that child would NOT be a citizen of the nation in which they were born. This "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof" works in both ways--to protect children who happen to be born outside the US and to protect the US from children who, by hook or crook, are born in the US without the parents' having been legal.
     
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    diesel1959

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    The "and", as far as I can tell, would exclude people with diplomatic immunity, foreign military and government agents.
    Only people who live here and aren't here on behalf of foreign governments.

    And now that I think about it, probably Indians, too. Maybe.
    That's part of it; however, that is also dealt with by international diplomatic treaties.

    So-called "Indians" weren't included because they were specifically viewed as independent sovereign nations. It took a lot of years for that all to be hashed out by bloodshed and treaties; however, enrolled tribal members were a part of a sovereign nation other than the United States. That all changed in 1924 with the Indian Citizenship Act (so-called Snyder Act.), but it was true at the writing and ratification of the 14A.
     
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    diesel1959

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    Well, when the next President (that is not Donald Trump) leans more left than BO, signs an EO temporarily banning the ownership and use of firearms.... please don't cry foul.

    OR,

    If that same President enacts a EO allowing all peace officers to randomly pick any home, vehicle, or private area and search it for anything illegal without probable cause.... please don't put up a fight. As stated, it should be good enough for you.

    ________________________________________________
    I am as conservative as many of you out there, but I am a true Constitutionalist at heart. I find it hypocritical many of the naysayers here fight for our 1st, 2nd, 4th, and 5th to the bitter end, and yet we cheer for an EO that will block the 14th. Each of our 27 amendments to the Constitution should be defended equally. They are all important, and hold us high above the rest of the world.

    My $0.02
    That's chicken little. This is because such an EO would absolutely run counter to established Supreme Court precedent. If you can't intellectually wrap your thoughts around the difference between your hypothetical and the situation regarding the conjunctive clause in the 14A, I have very little help for you in understanding legal construction and executive action.
     

    sharkey

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    Well, when the next President (that is not Donald Trump) leans more left than BO, signs an EO temporarily banning the ownership and use of firearms.... please don't cry foul.

    OR,

    If that same President enacts a EO allowing all peace officers to randomly pick any home, vehicle, or private area and search it for anything illegal without probable cause.... please don't put up a fight. As stated, it should be good enough for you.

    ________________________________________________
    I am as conservative as many of you out there, but I am a true Constitutionalist at heart. I find it hypocritical many of the naysayers here fight for our 1st, 2nd, 4th, and 5th to the bitter end, and yet we cheer for an EO that will block the 14th. Each of our 27 amendments to the Constitution should be defended equally. They are all important, and hold us high above the rest of the world.

    My $0.02
    The 2A has no relation to the 14A so you can't compare the two. Levin states this came about in the 60's with an EO so were folks.complaining then? To understand the 14A, you have to go back to the historical accounts and why the founders Dems wrote it that way. It was NOT because Mexicans were coming across the border then.

    Levin has posted articles about it and so has Horowitz so you might look into it. I am not a historian or a Constitutional expert but know enuff that you should not have citizenship here just because you were plopped out by an illegal criminal. I also know enuff that this issue is no way connected to a citizens Bill of Rights to include the 2A.

    I cry foul all the time with what Congress has done and what this past admin done. I also vote so I think I have the right to cry foul.

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    diesel1959

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    I guess if Trump tried to remove the NFA through an EO on the 2nd you'd be against him for tampering with the 2nd.
    It's possible that an EO could be prepared with respect to some aspect of what the NFA deals with and, in so doing, it might prompt legal action that winds up in the Supreme Court and leads to a new understanding of what the NFA really means . . . or doesn't.
     

    easy rider

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    It's possible that an EO could be prepared with respect to some aspect of what the NFA deals with and, in so doing, it might prompt legal action that winds up in the Supreme Court and leads to a new understanding of what the NFA really means . . . or doesn't.
    That's what I was eluding to.
     

    diesel1959

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    Why not?
    They are American soldiers protecting our border.

    Is the border patrol unarmed?
    Are the F15s that protect our airspace unarmed?
    Posse Comitatus law does lay out quite a LOT of restrictions upon what Federal Troops may or may not do while within the United States. However, I would suggest that folks remember that armed members of the Armed Forces NEVER lose the ability to protect themselves from deadly force directed against themselves. DJT laid out in his speech in the Roosevelt Room today that he is issuing orders that state that "rocks being hurled at the troops" will be taken as a deadly weapon. He equated them to "a firearm"; however, what he was, in-artfully, trying to declare what that rocks hurled as missiles at US troops can be considered as deadly force directed at them. That is one of the many things that would permit lawful use of deadly force in return.
     
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    vmax

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    Posse Comitatus law does lay out quite a LOT of restrictions upon what Federal Troops may or may not do while within the United States.
    protection of US citizens regarding military acting as domestic law enforcement.... not how the Army responds to an invading enemy army
     

    diesel1959

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    protection of US citizens regarding military acting as domestic law enforcement.... not how the Army responds to an invading enemy army
    Yes, but the sticky situation comes about if (or when) some of those "invaders" get "feet dry" on our soil . . .
     
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