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  1. #21
    Banned
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    Corpus Christi, Texas
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    7,098
    RIP brother.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by WCDUB View Post
    I've not seen anyone mention this idea,so I will. In order to prevent or lessen muzzle rise,
    why not put the index finger of your supporting hand over the front of the trigger guard? I'm
    especially talking about Glocks,
    or any pistol that has a some-what flat front to the trigger guard. I realize that this
    position will not work on a trigger guard with a rounded front.
    Flashlights, sympathetic contractions, better recoil management by gripping the strong hand, giving a negative input to the shot, etc.

    Shame about Paul, hopefully someone will finish his book.

  3. #23
    TGT Supporter IXLR8's Avatar
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    May 2009
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    Republic of Texas
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    2,604
    I consider the two videos in the OP to be the best information that I can pass along to a new shooter. I did not know that he is no longer with us. At least his knowledge will continue to teach and improve the skills of others in the future.
    The caliber of the man counts more than the caliber of his gun.

    I poke Badgers with spoons....

  4. #24
    Yeah, it has been over a year now, unfortunately. If I remeber correctly it was related to his diabetes. I'm glad that his videos have stayed on youtube and I hope someone with the knowledge and foresight saves them.

  5. #25
    Administrator SIG_Fiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NOLA Jack View Post
    Yeah, it has been over a year now, unfortunately. If I remeber correctly it was related to his diabetes. I'm glad that his videos have stayed on youtube and I hope someone with the knowledge and foresight saves them.
    Immediately after he passed, I downloaded every single video and have them archived on my hard drive. So no worries there. One of the other things I've wanted to do is go back through some of the forums Paul was involved on, like TPI, Bayoushooter, etc. and literally archive every single post of his. I think it speaks a lot to the depth of insight and knowledge he had, in that you can keep coming back to a simple post or video of his on a single seemingly simple subject, and even after several years you can still pick up new things and see them from completely different perspectives you may not have considered before. At least, that's been my experience in every piece of content of his that I've seen. I think there is still significant value in that content, that needs to be maintained so that others can learn from it as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by WCDUB View Post
    I've not seen anyone mention this idea,so I will. In order to prevent or lessen muzzle rise,
    why not put the index finger of your supporting hand over the front of the trigger guard? I'm
    especially talking about Glocks,
    or any pistol that has a some-what flat front to the trigger guard. I realize that this
    position will not work on a trigger guard with a rounded front.
    Basically, lateral torque is why.

    The reason is there are many ways the end result could actually be detrimental and could lead to some consistency issues. Basically, you'd have a finger wrapped around it on one side effectively. The natural tendency would be not to just pull straight back and/or down with that finger, but there's also likely going to be some side to side pull as well. This could negatively affect how the gun tracks in recoil. The ultimate goal with recoil control is to set things up in as neutral a manner as possible, with just enough tension to keep the gun under control, but ultimately with evenly distributed grip pressure around as much of the grip as possible, as high up on the grip as possible. The end result is setting the gun up to track fairly consistently in recoil, without trying to "fight" that recoil. Once you've achieved that, you pretty much let the gun do it's thing in recoil, "see what you need to see" with the sights (which is a VERY complex subject in itself not often described in enough detail), and basically "drive" the gun. With a finger on the trigger guard, it can be very easy to induce a lateral torque in the recoil path of the gun, which can make it much more difficult to achieve followthrough as quickly or consistently in getting the sights to return back on target so you are setup for the next shot. In itself, probably a seemingly small factor.

    When you add multiple shots, shooting at speed, etc., those little factors start to add up. Maybe it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, maybe it does, and/or maybe there are far more important factors. Tough to say, and the answer may be different for each shooter. Although the vast majority of the best USPSA/IPSC shooters in the world shoot with no finger on the trigger guard, I think it's important to note something here. Not everyone does everything the same way. Take Eric Grauffel, for example. He's been winning competitions at the highest level for nearly 20 years, and is one of the best pistol shooters in the world. Guess what? He uses a finger on the trigger guard. IIRC, I believe Jerry Barnhart, also a world leading pistol shooter, uses or used to use a grip like that. I would still not advocate that the average shooter do that, as I feel it is far easier and more consistent for the average shooter to stick to all fingers under the trigger guard. I do think examples of professionals like that just goes to show that if you put in significant time and effort at something, to the point of mastery, sometimes you can still make those little differences work for you.

    The cliff notes here are that you don't want to actively fight the recoil, per se. You want to provide enough tension to keep things under control, but ultimately set the gun up to run consistently, let it recoil and muzzle flip, and simply work with that to "drive" the gun.

    The major difference between "driving" and "fighting" the gun is this. When people fight the gun, they do it in many different ways. See if any of these ring a bell:
    • Death gripping the gun
    • So tense you get "trigger freeze" when trying to rapid fire
    • So tense your upper body feels completely worn out after only a few seconds or a few minutes
    • You're bearing down on the gun with your entire upper body
    • You're forearms, elbows, upper arms, and shoulders are all locked up solid
    • You feel it in your traps and lats, and worst case you pull or feel your traps/lats are sore after shooting a few competition stages, or spending an hour on the range


    There are probably a whole lot of other indicators. Bottom line, there is basically way too much tension, locking of joints, etc.

    Driving the gun:
    • Gripping with only the tension necessary to keep the gun controlled and in hand. Control does not equal eliminating muzzle flip. Muzzle flip, for the most part, is kind of a non-issue in most cases.
    • Your upper torso is relaxed and fluid, you are not locking up all of your joints and bearing down on the gun
    • Your trigger finger can freely and easily pull the trigger at whatever speed you desire
    • The gun tracks relatively straight up and down in recoil
    • You are seeing the sights to the degree and level of focus necessary to make the shot. Sight picture and sight focus are infinitely variable here, determined by the target and difficulty of the shot.
    "Ammo in the gun = Time in the fight." -Paul Gomez

    SERPA Hater Crew founding member #1

  6. #26
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    244
    Keep it simple folks. Weaver position. Normal two handed grip, strong hand pushed forward into support hand which is simultaneously pulls rearward. Bent elbows and asymmetrical foot position will enhance recoil position - slow or double tap basics the same.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by SIG_Fiend View Post
    Immediately after he passed, I downloaded every single video and have them archived on my hard drive. So no worries there. One of the other things I've wanted to do is go back through some of the forums Paul was involved on, like TPI, Bayoushooter, etc. and literally archive every single post of his. I think it speaks a lot to the depth of insight and knowledge he had, in that you can keep coming back to a simple post or video of his on a single seemingly simple subject, and even after several years you can still pick up new things and see them from completely different perspectives you may not have considered before. At least, that's been my experience in every piece of content of his that I've seen. I think there is still significant value in that content, that needs to be maintained so that others can learn from it as well.
    I don't know if that is something easily done with vbullitin, but I can ask about it(on second thought, you're an admin here, so I'm assuming you know it can be done). Ask Craig to do it on TPI, I don't think he would have a problem with that, and I should be able to get it done on bayoushooter.
    Last edited by NOLA Jack; 04-05-2014 at 09:56 PM.

  8. #28
    Thanks for the valuable information. Everything you said makes perfect sense,and I learned a lot. thanks to everyone for their responses and information. Sorry about Paul.
    Last edited by WCDUB; 04-05-2014 at 11:49 PM. Reason: posted twice

  9. #29
    Thanks to everyone for the valuable information,especially to SIG_Fiend . Everything you said makes perfect sense,and I learned a lot. Sorry about Paul.
    Last edited by WCDUB; 04-05-2014 at 11:51 PM. Reason: clean up

  10. #30
    Administrator SIG_Fiend's Avatar
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    Feb 2008
    Location
    Austin, TX
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    Quote Originally Posted by NOLA Jack View Post
    I don't know if that is something easily done with vbullitin, but I can ask about it(on second thought, you're an admin here, so I'm assuming you know it can be done). Ask Craig to do it on TPI, I don't think he would have a problem with that, and I should be able to get it done on bayoushooter.
    The way I am, I don't mind doing it manually, even though we're talking about thousands of posts. It's a much smaller number for the threads he created in which he basically wrote detailed articles on things such as drawstroke, retention fire positions, etc. I have to think about it for a bit though. One of the tools I use for my job is able to scrape massive amounts of data in short periods of time. There may be a feasible way to use that here, but I'm not sure yet.

    If there is one thing I've learned, it's that one of the most important things a person can put significant effort, study, and insight into is actually learning how to learn. People want to learn the "what", and sometimes also the "why", but far less often do people consider how the instructor came to those conclusions. What were the thought processes used? How did the instructor's personal experiences and history influence those decisions? Do those exact same thought processes make the most sense for your particular needs? If so, if you think with the same process, what conclusions does it lead you to? Nowadays, though it seems I am less frequently able to make it to a training class, the majority of the time I am taking a class, much of my focus is on learning about the unique experiences and insight of the instructor, and how they make their decisions. It may not always be applicable, it may not always lead to the right answers for your needs, but it usually leads to learning additional ways to learn how to become a better student and be better able to exercise critical thought for yourself versus looking for others to hand the answers to you.
    "Ammo in the gun = Time in the fight." -Paul Gomez

    SERPA Hater Crew founding member #1

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