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State Fair 2009 Disappointment

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  • gemini

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    Oct 2, 2009
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    Texas
    I am new to this site. Sorry to post something this long, but I thought some of you may be interested. This occurred Thursday Oct 1, 2009.
    I have already contacted 2 local radio talk show hosts, pro 2nd ammendment. State Representatives. And my attorney.

    STATE FAIR DISAPPOINTMENT
    Warning: This is a very long post. Sorry.
    I arranged to cut my work day short, my wife left her job early, a good friend
    and his wife also cut their work day short, in order to attend this years Fair together.
    We arrived at the Fair grounds today, about 4:45pm. We parked in a on premise
    Fair parking lot and proceeded to the entry gate from the parking lot.
    At the entry gate I was wanded by the attendant. I had my CHL out and was displaying
    it to her. She was oblivious until she heard the beep, saw the CHL and exclaimed (rather
    loudly) “do you have a concealed weapon on you”? The next words out of her mouth were
    “I have to write down your information”. I stated “all I needed to do was speak with the officer”
    (seated in an elevated chair / umbrella) and pointed in his direction. She hastily went to his
    stand and stated “he has a CHL” and “I am supposed to write down his ID and information”.
    The officer asked for my CHL, I showed it to him and he stated “that wasn’t (writing down the info)
    necessary”, and handed it back to me. NOW THE PROBLEM BEGINS!:
    The gate attendant stated (to the officer) that she “had been told by the gate supervisor to write down
    everyones ID and information if they enter with a CHL or they are NOT allowed entry into the
    Fair grounds”. I told the officer that “I would not give her any of my personal information. It’s not
    required by law, and I don’t think it’s legal for them to be collecting the type of information they are
    requiring for entry”. He actually nodded in agreement, but decided to contact a gate supervisor. I waited
    about 7 minutes for a “supervisor” (named Don) to arrive.
    Don was adament. “No ID and information, no entry into the Fair”. Don stated “the Fair was private
    property and collecting the information was their policy”. I stated it was “government property”.He
    then walked away. I continued speaking with the officer (in the elevated seat) about information
    privacy, CHL, ID theft etc etc. We actually had very similar views. However, he said he had to go by
    the “policy”. The gate attendant and gate supervisor (Don) had rather abrasive attitudes.
    *I want to stress that at no time was the uniformed Dallas Police Officer Burke rude, or offensive in any way. He seemed like a nice guy that was just “following company policy” so to speak.
    Next thing I know a man described as Head of Security pulls up on a little scooter. His name was
    Steve Ledbetter. Dismounts his mighty mini-steed and walks over to me. (I guess Don didn’t like my
    refusal to illegally take my personal info and had called for backup). Head of Security says “it’s their
    policy. Either allow them to record my information or leave. Or go put it back in your car”. I replied “I
    will not allow my personal information, my CHL number, my SSN, my guns serial number or anything
    else to be recorded”. He then proceeded to tell me that they (the Fair) had numerous “incidents” with
    CHL holders that caused a lot of problems at the Fair. That CHL holders had lost guns on rides and that
    Fair officials had found them the following day. They needed the information in case you “lost” your gun
    …so they’d know who to return it too. Then he tried to relate how a guns/CHL registration (logged info
    with Fair gate keeper) and an automobile registration were similar because you could just sell a gun but
    would have to register a car to sell it. I finally responded “I don’t see any connection there, and I’m not
    sure where this is going or how it relates”. He stated “this is their policy (I’d heard that line before), they
    rent the Fair for 24 days each year , they’re a private company and that’s it”.
    The rest of the story: The 3 others in my party had already paid admission and were waiting for my
    ordeal to end. When I told them what had transpired, they were not willing to attend the Fair without
    me. I had already called one of my sons to be ready to come pick me up so the others could still attend.
    Nothing doing, they understood my position and fully supported my decision to not attend the Fair
    under these circumstances.
    BeforeHead of Security could exit the immediate area, I asked that the monies paid by my friends be
    refunded. He had to call another man to the gate to issue the refund. The ticket booth operator was not
    authorized to make refunds. So, we wait about 15 minutes. A very nice older gentleman arrived, and we
    got our refund. *this gentleman was very nice and apologetic
    Time was now 6:05pm.
    **One note I need to make clear: At NO time did I raise my voice, cuss, disrespect or threaten
    anyone during this entire fiasco. However, by the time the gate supervisor, gate attendant and
    head of security were through calling each other on 2 way radio’s etc…..pretty much everyone in the
    gate area knew I had a CHL and was carrying a weapon and what the commotion was about. This did
    not make me happy. They handled nothing discretely.

    We left the Fair, I took everyone to eat at an upscale Mexican restaurant.
    I have a call in to my attorney re: a possible civil rights violation.
    I will be calling Joe Driver, Allan Vought, Mark Davis and a few others in the morning.
    To some it may be a wasted trip, time and money. I know my wife and I were disappointed, as were
    the couple we were with. Lost wages from work etc. Some may not make the effort to refuse their
    personal info be recorded by Fair personnel. I am going to stay with this until it is resolved. I attended
    the last Fair with no problems. No, I am not a happy camper. No one with a valid CHL should have to
    go through this type of abuse. Post the required legal signage banning carry if allowed to by law,
    but don’t make policy or company law or regulations that supercede state law and violate my
    individual rights.
    If you’ve made it this far reading…….I thank you for your time and for lending me an ear to vent.
    I welcomeconstructive suggestions and/or constructive criticism.

    I have since contacted Earl McCoy’s (General Manager State Fair) office at 214-421-8730 and
    was informed that it IS their policy to enter CHL personal information into a log by the gate supervisor.
    Texas SOT
     

    DCortez

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    Jan 28, 2009
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    We left the Fair, I took everyone to eat at an upscale Mexican restaurant.


    I was with you til that It's rice and beans, people. Nothing upscale about Mexican food, however, Mexican style food can be. Pappasitos has to be the worst.


    Seriously though, those guy suck.
     

    TxEMTP69

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    Feb 17, 2009
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    Rockport
    I hate reading stuff like this, +1 on another eason not to go to Dallas, +2 on standing up for your rights, +3 on the upscale mexican restaurants
     

    MadMo44Mag

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    Jan 23, 2009
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    Ft.Worth
    I had a problem a few years back at the fair. I won't go into details here but never been back.
    Same type of issue, they wanted info they were not entitled too.
     

    kingofwylietx

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    Feb 29, 2008
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    DFW area.....Wylie.
    Good luck w/the lawyer. I have to go against the general consensus here. First, I don't really want them writing down my info.....but, all in all, who cares? Well, you do. And that is fine, I understand that. However, they are writing down info that is already public record. Your CHL & DL are public information. Heck, rent a car, open a bank account, or clear security at the airport and you have to produce a DL. Also, if you go to their website, it is a private corporation that runs the event.

    They can kiss my butt before I give them my social, because that is something you really can use for ID theft.

    Also, if you decide to vote with your wallet.....then you should call them to let them know that you didn't go because you don't feel it is right for them to write down your info. Otherwise, they have no idea that they have lost any revenue. If they get enough complaints, they may change the policy next year. Policies change much faster when they are making a revenue loss.
     

    gemini

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    Oct 2, 2009
    30
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    Texas
    Good luck w/the lawyer. I have to go against the general consensus here. First, I don't really want them writing down my info.....but, all in all, who cares? Well, you do. And that is fine, I understand that. However, they are writing down info that is already public record. Your CHL & DL are public information. Heck, rent a car, open a bank account, or clear security at the airport and you have to produce a DL. Also, if you go to their website, it is a private corporation that runs the event.

    in 2007 the TX legislature banned "open records request" for CHL information. Produce your DL for ID? OK. But SSN, serial number from your gun etc. and entering it in a log? Not going to happen.

    They can kiss my butt before I give them my social, because that is something you really can use for ID theft.

    Also, if you decide to vote with your wallet.....then you should call them to let them know that you didn't go because you don't feel it is right for them to write down your info. Otherwise, they have no idea that they have lost any revenue. If they get enough complaints, they may change the policy next year. Policies change much faster when they are making a revenue loss.

    I have contacted 2 state representatives, 2 radio (pro 2nd ammendment) jocks, the General Managers office of the Fair (Earl McCoy @ 214-421-8730). Besides a trial lawyer. And I'm not finished.
     

    Renegade

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    Mar 5, 2008
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    Call TSRA.

    They have been doing this for years, you are the first I know of to stand up to them. Good job.

    They cannot deny you entry to the fair on the basis of you being a CHL. Putting ridiculous requirements (recording ID), is circumventing the intent of the law.
     

    Renegade

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    However, they are writing down info that is already public record. Your CHL & DL are public information.

    No a CHL is not public record. If you think so, tell me what my CHL number is?

    But that is not the point. The law was put in place to allow CHLs easy access to govt property. This circumvents that. What if next year then demand fingerprints, a bio scan, or an ankle brace? When does it end. They are not authorized to do this.
     

    gemini

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    Oct 2, 2009
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    Call TSRA.

    They have been doing this for years, you are the first I know of to stand up to them. Good job.

    They cannot deny you entry to the fair on the basis of you being a CHL. Putting ridiculous requirements (recording ID), is circumventing the intent of the law.


    Renegade, thank you.
    My attorney has reviewed and has placed a call to Fair management.
    Currently waiting for their response.
    I agree with you 100%.
     

    hkusp1

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    Mar 25, 2009
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    yea i got into it when i went to the fair this year, there was some state fair employee screaming and yelling about how stupid people are for having a chl and coming to the fair grounds with their guns, i simply told her to stop complaining since they had no legal signage banning concealed carry at any entrance and told her to shut up and worry about doing your job (ticket taker). security handles lost firearms and that is why they take your info but i would not be handing over any personal info to any gate keeper if you can get ahold of security and you feel you have to take your weapon in with you give your info to the security personnel they are all either on or off duty police officers and steve ledbetter is a very close friend of our family he lives 1 house down from my inlaws he is a very stand up guy and all chl info goes directly to him them in a locked filing cabinet, after the end of the fair all info collected is destroyed. im not defending what they are to doing im just giving the info that was given to me from the source.
     

    txinvestigator

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    I wonder what the folks would have done had you entered the fair anyway? I am not suggesting that you should have tried, but I can't help but wonder..........
     

    gemini

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    Oct 2, 2009
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    yea i got into it when i went to the fair this year, there was some state fair employee screaming and yelling about how stupid people are for having a chl and coming to the fair grounds with their guns, i simply told her to stop complaining since they had no legal signage banning concealed carry at any entrance and told her to shut up and worry about doing your job (ticket taker). security handles lost firearms and that is why they take your info but i would not be handing over any personal info to any gate keeper if you can get ahold of security and you feel you have to take your weapon in with you give your info to the security personnel they are all either on or off duty police officers and steve ledbetter is a very close friend of our family he lives 1 house down from my inlaws he is a very stand up guy and all chl info goes directly to him them in a locked filing cabinet, after the end of the fair all info collected is destroyed. im not defending what they are to doing im just giving the info that was given to me from the source.

    Interesting. If he told you that, then he's telling you one thing and other folks a entirely different story. The fact is, Steve Ledbetter was nowhere around when I walked through the gate and this whole fiasco began. The person that was going to take my information was a gate wander. She (gate wander) is not a active police officer. My understanding is Steve is retired. He was also touted to be Head of Security. So him passing the buck doesn't fly.
    I want to ask you 2 questions. IF you carry, and you lost or had your gun stolen, what would your first and immediate action be? Seriously, you carry lawfully and ...ooopppss..."lose" your gun and don't know it? the answer to the first question is: Notify the proper authorities at once. the answer to the second question is: you would know the gun was gone. Under the extreme circumstance you had a very physical altercation you MIGHT not notice for a few seconds the gun was gone. However, with the Head of Security in charge....none of these scenarios could take place....
    "security handles firearms"???? They have no business even knowing you have a concealed weapon.
    My contention is that it is illegal to collect this information or log a registry of firearms. State law forbids this. State law forbids municipalities from barring CHL from municipal properties. Just because his employer rents the Fair grounds doesn't allow him to make rules or "policy" that supercedes state law. It also wouldn't allow a municipality to grant a leasee or renter the option of obeying the law, or making up rules and "policy" that contradict the intent of state law.
    I'll let the attorneys fight it out.
    As far as Steve Ledbetter being a standup guy, that's your personal opinion. Not mine. Good neighbor? Maybe. Maybe not. None of that had/has anything to do with the incident I posted.
     

    hkusp1

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    dude you have a crappy attitude not to mention you come off as really paranoid. all i was doing was relaying the info i had been given by the head of security at the state fair.
     

    DCortez

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    dude you have a crappy attitude not to mention you come off as really paranoid. all i was doing was relaying the info i had been given by the head of security at the state fair.


    I thought he sounded pretty rude too. Heck, the guy didn't even introduce himself, just went straight into pity party mode. That says a lot to me.


    I'll give him the benefit of the doubt since I wasn't there and it sounds like it was a pretty stressful situation. But from here on out, I'd expect him to be a nicer citizen of this here forum.
     

    Shorts

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    Guys, chill out. I saw gemini's post over on the Texas CHL forum earlier. It does have some merit and like I posted about it on the txchlforum, this scenario is my biggest concern if/when such an interaction takes place (everyone and their dog knowing what's going on).

    There was a uniform standing there with gemini along with the workers from the fair. There's no reason they should be collecting or recording anyone's CHL or firearm information. AFAIK they have no authority to do so.

    He knows Jack from Jill in regards to Mr Ledbetter. And his response to hkusp1 is probably a bit hot but if I were in his shoes I wouldn't be taking anyone's word for something just yet after such a scene.

    Just everyone cool it here and catch your breath

    I wonder what the folks would have done had you entered the fair anyway? I am not suggesting that you should have tried, but I can't help but wonder..........


    I've wondered the same. My guess would be the workers would freak out and demand that the uniformed officer remove or arrest the guy. I suppose from there there would be an sturdy leg to stand on as far as taking legal action goes.
     

    txinvestigator

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    And whoever told the guy that there is often problem with CHLers and them losing their guns on rides is a liar.

    The fair employees would call the police and turn the gun into them if they found one. They have no idea WHO it came from. The police would run it thru their records, and if a CHLer reported it lost/stolen then BINGO, problem solved.
     

    gemini

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    In response to some of the above comments left by long time users of this forum, I apologize if I offended anyone or posted something you felt was rude. I have lurked in this forum in the past. I joined and actually posted something I felt was important to the shooting community and CHL holders. My intent was to inform, not insult. That said, I stand by everything I posted as the truth.

    As far as introductions: I was born and raised in Texas. I have hunted and fished all my life. I have a family, I have manners when around ladies or children and I expect for you to have them too. I believe in Jesus Christ and I love sports. I stand for the national anthym with my hat off and my hand over my heart. I respect the flag and the men who defend our country. I expect a man to have a job. Even if he feels the work is "beneath" himself. That's about it.

    Thank you
     
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