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Front Sight Firearms Training Institute

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  • benenglish

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    I guess I'm just aged past the point where I can remember things but I seem to remember that Front Sight is an organization that has engendered some controversy in the past. I just can't remember why.

    Could somebody refresh my memory? I'm not interested in starting arguments, just understanding why some people had/have a problem with them.

    The reason I'm asking is that I just got an offer to purchase a high-level membership at a very low price. This kind of discount really got my attention so I'm just trying to do my due diligence before I bite or walk.

    TIA.

    PS - Yes, I know how to google things but, frankly, what I've found so far is all over the map. I see accusations of outdated teaching techniques that are directly contradicted elsewhere. I see lots of emotional negative crap and lots of over-the-top fanboi posts, neither of which is useful to me.
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    matefrio

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    Looked at them long and hard several years ago.

    At best you can say they'er setup like a gym membership where they hope most people don't use what they purchased. Look at the full cost of travel and lodging during your stay in that area.

    It's setup like a religion with Dr. Ignatius Piazza as the leader and has a hint of Scientology influence if not directly an offspring of the group and methods. Now he's going to sue me. Their instructors are the strongest followers. They even have land for folks to build houses on the property there. The first classes look for folks wanting to climb the ladder with larger packages each level.

    I'm not saying a person can't benefit from the training but I'd aware of their end goal.
     

    Professor

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    My wife and I have been to Front Sight twice and had lots of fun and excellent training. The online marketing is persistent, but you can easily opt out if you like. The instructors are outstanding. My wife had no experience with shooting and I've been shooting for years (ex law enforcement). Despite the disparity in our experience, we both learned and enjoyed. We took the 4-day defensive handgun course. In addition to the shooting, there were some excellent lectures on use of deadly force, gun safety and other topics.

    Depending on where you live, the travel expense has to be considered, but the training itself is well worth what you pay for it. You will receive lots of emails giving you the opportunity to upgrade your membership, but they can disappear with a click of your mouse - not a big deal.

    We took friends with us both times we went and all of them have gone back to FS on their own. I've heard lots of criticism on the marketing, but almost no criticism related to the experience from anyone who has actually been there. Everyone is different, but for us, it was fun and very worthwhile.
     

    txinvestigator

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    I have never been. I recall, many years ago, a couple of safety issues. However, I know two people who attended in 2012. They were sent by the gun range where they taught. The woman went to college as a competitive shotgunner. She obtained a degree is Range Management and she was a fair pistol shooter. The man was also college educated and had already been to other shooting schools, mostly rifle. He was an above average handgun shooter.

    Both reported that the school was professional. They both felt the basic course was appropriate for what it was, a basic course. The agreed that safety was maintained during the course. They both said they would take other classes there.
     

    SIG_Fiend

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    Random thoughts:

    I've never been, but I like to think I have a fairly well-tuned BS meter.

    https://www.frontsight.com/SafetyReports.asp?Action=ShowSingle&ID=5

    Cliff's Notes: in 15 years they've had 20 injury-resulting ND's and one fatality. That's roughly one negligent shooting per year. Keep in mind, these are gunshot / powder burn injury ND's, not non-injury downrange ND's. Considering the sheer volume of students that supposedly go through the place, it is a miracle more people haven't been negligently shot or killed. That being said, on average, almost every year someone is getting injured according to the numbers. I can think of quite a few other schools and instructors I know personally or know of, some of which put a pretty fair volume of students through classes, that don't have anything remotely close to this many injury-resulting ND's.

    The sheer volume of students. This should give people pause. 5:1 student/instructor ratios are a pretty safe ratio to maintain for classes. While it sounds like, at least in some of their classes, they might actually be maintaining this, there is the fact that we regularly hear about 15-20+ students on the firing line. In certain classes with certain instructors, and with experienced students at a particular skill level, safe classes can be run with this many people present. This may be speculation but, with all of the reviews and other data I have seen of their classes, it has lead me to the conclusion that there is a fairly high number of untrained and/or completely new-to-firearms students in classes a majority of the time. 15-20+ new or nearly new shooters on the line sounds like playing with fire to me, but that's just my opinion.

    The marketing. Some of the worst in the industry. Used car salesman, scraping the bottom of the bucket level salesmanship. "Millionaire Patriot Wants You Trained to Shoot Faster and More Accurately Than a SWAT Cop or Navy SEAL... Pays $900 Out of His Own Pocket For Your First Course!" At this point, the BS meter should be going off or at least ticking wildly and raising an eyebrow... This is mail-order, MLM, Amway level stuff. Speaking of Amway...some of the negative sentiment around here has to do with students that have fallen for the MLM nature of Front Sight, like some past TGT members that have tried multiple times to hawk their "memberships" and "gift certificates" from Front Sight for AMAZING DEALS! I will never understand how people fall for this type of marketing.

    Here's a few reviews, supposedly from current and former employees/instructors. Obviously these must be taken with a grain of salt, without specific details about the individuals being present. If they are legitimate, the descriptions of low pay, high turnover rate, etc. lead to some interesting conclusions and possibilities.

    Front Sight Firearms Training Institute Reviews | Glassdoor

    I-Team Investigation: Deadly Day at Front Sight - 8 News NOW

    I-Team: Front Sight Members Take Last Shot and Win - 8 News NOW

    pdb : Front Sight Fail

    Successful class action lawsuit and temporary receivership against Front Sight at one point. Always a good sign.

    The point of all of this is, when you see a company or individual in this industry that is consistently surrounded by controversy and problems, it's usually a clue... With the number of high quality, vetted, legitimate and "peer-reviewed" schools and instructors out there, why spend those hard-earned dollars at a place like this? People are free to do so of course, and nothing against them, but I personally don't understand it. If it was me, I would much rather spend that money on going to some school like Thunder Ranch, TigerSwan, Rangemaster (their range unfortunately shut down), Rogers Shooting School, InSights Training Center, or any other number of well-regarded, vetted schools.
     

    benenglish

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    Funny that no one has addressed the "too good to be true" aspect that I alluded to in my first post. Because of the coincidence of my membership in two different groups, I've been offered a Lifetime Diamond Membership, normally priced at $15,000 per their web site, for $350.

    A discount that steep tends to make me stop and wonder what's wrong.
     

    matefrio

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    Funny that no one has addressed the "too good to be true" aspect that I alluded to in my first post. Because of the coincidence of my membership in two different groups, I've been offered a Lifetime Diamond Membership, normally priced at $15,000 per their web site, for $350.

    A discount that steep tends to make me stop and wonder what's wrong.

    Always suspected you're a member of the Illuminate.

    I kinda addressed it above. They are in a remote location and Hotel\Travel cost a bunch. Many people pay in and few end up going.
     

    Rebel

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    I attended the 2-day handgun course last year. I gotta say overall it was a good experience. We had probably 25 students in the class with 4 instructors. A good amount of classroom time as well as range time. Handguns varied but leaned heavily towards Glock. 5.11 clothing was in abundance as well. I wore jeans, a t-shirt, and hiking boots.

    As to the membership pricing, super sales, limited time offers, it's all a sales gimmick. I know about a dozen people who have memberships of one kind or another, and none of them paid more than $300 per person.

    Coming from here, it can be costly to go there. The facility is about 25 minutes outside of Pahrump. Pahrump is about an hour outside of Las Vegas, which has the closest airport. None of the half-dozen hotels are crazy in price, and all will offer a discount if you mention you are attending class at Front Sight. If you will be there for 4 days or more, it will be more cost effective to rent a small RV/Camper and park it outside the front gate. I would only go back if it were built into a trip visiting friends/family in California.

    If you are serious about going, I recommend:
    - good sunglasses (if they aren't wraparound, they will make you use little thingies that slide on to your glasses to protect the periphery)
    - a hat
    - sunscreen
    - 4 magazines
    - comfortable shoes
    - pack a lunch
    - check the weather every day leading up to it
     

    LifeQuest

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    I know this tread is old... feel free to delete this post if I shouldn't have revived it..

    Funny that no one has addressed the "too good to be true" aspect that I alluded to in my first post. Because of the coincidence of my membership in two different groups, I've been offered a Lifetime Diamond Membership, normally priced at $15,000 per their web site, for $350.

    A discount that steep tends to make me stop and wonder what's wrong.

    Once you are a member, these memberships end up costing you about $100-$150 each. (through various marketing promotions) - I currently have about 16 Commander memberships (currently $25,000 on their website) - Saw this thread and it reminded me I had them... When I lived in Nevada I went to Front Sight one time.. It was good. They've gotten a lot bigger now. Anyway, I use to give these memberships to friends, etc., for $150-$200 - The "Guns at cost" benefit was well worth the money. I really should get rid of these memberships before I forget I have them again.
     

    LifeQuest

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    How long before a sales pitch? **insert rolling eyes emoticon***

    You sound as cynical as I am... But no, no sales pitch coming.. they are not for sale..

    Like I said I use to give these away to friends, etc.. and forgot I even had them. I was just shedding some light on why such a steep discount (it's not really a steep discount, but a markup from what they actually cost members)
     

    ZX9RCAM

    Over the Rainbow bridge...
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    You sound as cynical as I am... But no, no sales pitch coming.. they are not for sale..

    Like I said I use to give these away to friends,
    etc.. and forgot I even had them. I was just shedding some light on why such a steep discount (it's not really a steep discount, but a markup from what they actually cost members)

    Anyway, I use to give these memberships to friends, etc., for $150-$200 - .

    That sounds like you sold them the way I'm reading it...
     

    LifeQuest

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    That sounds like you sold them the way I'm reading it...

    You're right.. it could easily be read that way..
    My bad..
    "Anyway, I use to give these memberships to friends, etc.", (insert period here)
    New sentence...

    "For $150-$200 - The "Guns at cost" benefit was well worth the money."
     

    CoinFinder

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    Dec 12, 2018
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    Haslet, TX
    I've been there for a 2 day handgun course. The course and the instructors were very good.

    For people that have never been there before, they want you to sit through a sales-pitch seminar which is the high pressure sale. No obligation, you can still do your training, but its very used-car-like.

    Again, the training was very good. Lots of safety and I thought the instructors were very proficient and had safety as a top concern. Also, everyone carries hot while they're on the property.

    I have a lifetime membership that is the Diamond quoted here that's advertised for $15k, I bought it for $75 a few years back. I haven't been there since I bought it. I probably won't go either - as I bought the membership when I lived much closer to the facility. Now that I'm in TX, I have no interest in going there even if it is free training.

    The email marketing (and phone marketing) is off the charts. Ignatius seems to me like a 3rd rate used car salesman that's overwhelmed with debt. Once you opt out though, they seem to stop.

    Personally, I'd look elsewhere. I haven't been there in a number of years but as others have posted there is no lack of bad things written about them and their tactics, so I can't imagine its gotten better over time. I'd say put your hard earned bucks into the local economy and develop a training relationship with more local people that earn their living honestly. There's nothing to do in Pahrump besides FrontSight and Spring Mountain (where I'm headed next month actually), but Spring Mountain seems much more reputable :)
     

    Bertgamble

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    I have been there many times and it is a well run training facility. Do not, I repeat Do Not pay the price on their site. You can get a lifetime membership for less than $500 if you look around firearms boards. They focus on new shooters, but many long time shooters have bad habits and can use this training.

    Gunsite is much better, but at $2000 a pop, it does get expensive. I have trained extensively at both and recommend them highly.
     
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