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shooting inside the city limits

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  • uncle-buck

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    Oct 18, 2009
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    Houston
    As many of you are probably aware, in 2005, the Texas Local Government Code was amended to allow the discharge of firearms on certain lands inside the city limits under specific conditions. (see Section 229.002)

    If the land was annexed after 1981: it's legal to shoot shotguns on tracts of 10 acres or more provided you are more than 150 feet from a residence or occupied building. Rifles and pistols are OK on tracts of 50 acres or more provided you are more than 300 feet from a residence or occupied building.

    Shooting must be done in a manner not reasonably expected to cause a projectile to cross the boundary of the tract.

    I own an interest in a tract of land that qualifies, but the local police department has threatened to cite me if I exercise my right under state law to discharge firearms on the property.

    Any ideas on how to proceed under the circumstances? I know I can hire an attorney, which I may do at some point. But I would prefer to conserve my financial resources, if possible.

    Thank you for any feedback or ideas.
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    cuate

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    Jan 27, 2009
    1,842
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    Comanche Co., Texas
    As many of you are probably aware, in 2005, the Texas Local Government Code was amended to allow the discharge of firearms on certain lands inside the city limits under specific conditions. (see Section 229.002)

    If the land was annexed after 1981: it's legal to shoot shotguns on tracts of 10 acres or more provided you are more than 150 feet from a residence or occupied building. Rifles and pistols are OK on tracts of 50 acres or more provided you are more than 300 feet from a residence or occupied building.

    Shooting must be done in a manner not reasonably expected to cause a projectile to cross the boundary of the tract.

    I own an interest in a tract of land that qualifies, but the local police department has threatened to cite me if I exercise my right under state law to discharge firearms on the property.

    Any ideas on how to proceed under the circumstances? I know I can hire an attorney, which I may do at some point. But I would prefer to conserve my financial resources, if possible.

    Thank you for any feedback or ideas.

    There isn't but one way to find out and that is a test case which will be expensive, will likely result in your arrest, being fined, perhaps jailed briefly, hiring a lawyer, a court battle which you will likely win and spending lots of hard earned dollars.....

    Sometimes Freedom is just another word when dealing with the few LEOs
    that believe that the badge gives GODLike authority.
     

    uncle-buck

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    Oct 18, 2009
    14
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    Houston
    The local chief of police has indicated he will seek an opinion from the AG's office and I believe that he will. Whatever his personal views on the matter are, he probably has some influential locals who have asked him to try and stall or stop me. I don't blame the guy for wanting to hang onto his job.
     

    txinvestigator

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    May 28, 2008
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    Ft Worth, TX
    ..........

    Texas Local Government Code
    Sec. 229.002. REGULATION OF DISCHARGE OF WEAPON. A municipality may not apply a regulation relating to the discharge of firearms or other weapons in the extraterritorial jurisdiction of the municipality or in an area annexed by the municipality after September 1, 1981, if the firearm or other weapon is:
    (1) a shotgun, air rifle or pistol, BB gun, or bow and arrow discharged:
    (A) on a tract of land of 10 acres or more and more than 150 feet from a residence or occupied building located on another property; and
    (B) in a manner not reasonably expected to cause a projectile to cross the boundary of the tract; or
    (2) a center fire or rim fire rifle or pistol of any caliber discharged:
    (A) on a tract of land of 50 acres or more and more than 300 feet from a residence or occupied building located on another property; and
    (B) in a manner not reasonably expected to cause a projectile to cross the boundary of the tract

    Have you researched the city code there? Even if you are cited, it sould be a class C citation that should be easy to fight in court. If you lost at the municipal court level, you could appeal to the county courts and be re-tried, as MCs are not a court of record.
     

    Renegade

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    Mar 5, 2008
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    Texas
    The law was changed on September 1, I think you need to be 100% certain you are legal, as what you are quoting may not be correct depending upon where you live.

    Just out of curiosity, how do the Police even know what you plan to do?
     

    uncle-buck

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    Oct 18, 2009
    14
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    Houston
    The law was amended this year (as Section 229.003) to provide larger buffer zones in certain areas of the state, but it doesn't apply to my area.

    I am not inclined to get cited first and then stand trial. I would prefer to settle the matter in advance - or simply sue the city if they indicate an unwillingness to follow the law.

    The police know what I plan to do because I went out last weekend, shot on the property, and had a nice chat with them when they paid a visit. I cited the law (which they were unaware of) and they agreed not to cite me if I would agree to refrain from further shooting until they could consult with the city attorney.
     

    TexasRedneck

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    Jan 23, 2009
    14,560
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    New Braunfels, TX
    and they agreed not to cite me if I would agree to refrain from further shooting until they could consult with the city attorney.

    I'd say reasonable restraint was exhibitted on all sides. Once they've completed their research and presuming they find you're correct, then it would sound like they'll be okay w/it. I'd say everyone's being reasonable.
     

    biglucky

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    Feb 3, 2009
    1,292
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    Dripping Springs, TX
    The law was amended this year (as Section 229.003) to provide larger buffer zones in certain areas of the state, but it doesn't apply to my area.

    I am not inclined to get cited first and then stand trial. I would prefer to settle the matter in advance - or simply sue the city if they indicate an unwillingness to follow the law.

    The police know what I plan to do because I went out last weekend, shot on the property, and had a nice chat with them when they paid a visit. I cited the law (which they were unaware of) and they agreed not to cite me if I would agree to refrain from further shooting until they could consult with the city attorney.

    TBPH I think you are following the exact right path right here.. Kudos for standing up for your rights..
     

    armadillo

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    Sep 15, 2009
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    TX
    Did you state senator or representative support the original bill? If so, a letter to them might get some action.
     

    uncle-buck

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    Oct 18, 2009
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    Houston
    FYI, the local police chief apparently decided not to contact the AG's office on this. His position is that my undivided interest in the property isn't large enough to meet the buffer requirements under Chapter 229.

    My position (and the law) is that an undivided interest gives the owner/co-tenant the undisputed right to use, occupy, and enjoy the entire tract (118 acres in this instance).

    I have retained counsel and plan to litigate this matter. We must stand up to the anti-gunners when the law is on our side.

    Financial contributions of any amount would be most welcome and appreciated.
     

    Renegade

    SuperOwner
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    Mar 5, 2008
    11,747
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    Texas
    FYI, the local police chief apparently decided not to contact the AG's office on this. His position is that my undivided interest in the property isn't large enough to meet the buffer requirements under Chapter 229.

    My position (and the law) is that an undivided interest gives the owner/co-tenant the undisputed right to use, occupy, and enjoy the entire tract (118 acres in this instance).

    I have retained counsel and plan to litigate this matter. We must stand up to the anti-gunners when the law is on our side.

    Financial contributions of any amount would be most welcome and appreciated.

    I would shoot on it and litigate if I get arrested (well actually that is what I do just about every day). Odds are they know they are wrong and will do nothing.

    I do not see how suing them for enforcing a law that does not exist that they have not enforced yet works.
     

    uncle-buck

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    Oct 18, 2009
    14
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    Houston
    Renegade, I believe you are correct. The strategy is to shoot, get cited, defend the citation in municipal court and if necessary, appeal to county court - and win. My counsel is a top-notch real estate attorney who knows property rights.

    I'm also in discussions with a former prosecutor (now defense attorney) to defend any citation that may be issued. The city code treats the purported violation as a Class B misdemeanor for disorderly conduct with a maximum fine of $2,000.

    I've been reluctant to go this route, but can't live with the thought of letting the little tyrants get away with stealing my rights. If they do it to me, they'll do it to you - and everyone else they feel they can intimidate. Someone must put a stop to it.
     

    treyw

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    Oct 5, 2009
    81
    1
    Central TX
    "TITLE 9. OFFENSES AGAINST PUBLIC ORDER AND DECENCY


    CHAPTER 42.
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    DISORDERLY
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    verity_arrow_left.gif
    CONDUCT
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    AND RELATED OFFENSES



    Sec. 42.01.
    verity_arrow_left.gif
    DISORDERLY
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    verity_arrow_left.gif
    CONDUCT
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    . (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly:

    (1) uses abusive, indecent, profane, or vulgar language in a public place, and the language by its very utterance tends to incite an immediate breach of the peace;
    (2) makes an offensive gesture or display in a public place, and the gesture or display tends to incite an immediate breach of the peace;
    (3) creates, by chemical means, a noxious and unreasonable odor in a public place;
    (4) abuses or threatens a person in a public place in an obviously offensive manner;
    (5) makes unreasonable noise in a public place other than a sport shooting range, as defined by Section 250.001, Local Government Code, or in or near a private residence that he has no right to occupy;
    (6) fights with another in a public place;
    (7) discharges a firearm in a public place other than a public road or a sport shooting range, as defined by Section 250.001, Local Government Code;
    (8) displays a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm;
    (9) discharges a firearm on or across a public road;
    (10) exposes his anus or genitals in a public place and is reckless about whether another may be present who will be offended or alarmed by his act; or
    (11) for a lewd or unlawful purpose:
    (A) enters on the property of another and looks into a dwelling on the property through any window or other opening in the dwelling;
    (B) while on the premises of a hotel or comparable establishment, looks into a guest room not the person's own through a window or other opening in the room; or
    (C) while on the premises of a public place, looks into an area such as a restroom or shower stall or changing or dressing room that is designed to provide privacy to a person using the area.
    (b) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a)(4) that the actor had significant provocation for his abusive or threatening conduct.
    (c) For purposes of this section:
    (1) an act is deemed to occur in a public place or near a private residence if it produces its offensive or proscribed consequences in the public place or near a private residence; and
    (2) a noise is presumed to be unreasonable if the noise exceeds a decibel level of 85 after the person making the noise receives notice from a magistrate or peace officer that the noise is a public nuisance.
    (d) An offense under this section is a Class C misdemeanor unless committed under Subsection (a)(7) or (a)(8), in which event it is a Class B misdemeanor."

    Penal Code definition of a "Public Place"

    "(40) "
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    Public
    verity_arrow_right.gif
    verity_arrow_left.gif
    place
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    " means any place to which the public or a substantial group of the public has access and includes, but is not limited to, streets, highways, and the common areas of schools, hospitals, apartment houses, office buildings, transport facilities, and shops."


    Not sure how they could charge you with the Class B Disorderly Conduct? Do you allow the general public easy access to the tract of land? Also, how many people are listed in the city's population? If it's over 100,000 you'd be subject to PC 42.12, but the arresting officer would have to prove that your actions were reckless in nature before he fufilled the elements of the offense.

    "Sec. 42.12. DISCHARGE OF FIREARM IN CERTAIN MUNICIPALITIES. (a) A person commits an offense if the person recklessly discharges a firearm inside the corporate limits of a municipality having a population of 100,000 or more.
    (b) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.
    (c) If
    verity_arrow_left.gif
    http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx....disorderly<OR>conduct&HighlightType=1#nexthitconduct
    verity_arrow_right.gif
    constituting an offense under this section also constitutes an offense under another section of this code, the person may be prosecuted under either section.

    (d) Subsection (a) does not affect the authority of a municipality to enact an ordinance which prohibits the discharge of a firearm."
     

    uncle-buck

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    Oct 18, 2009
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    Houston
    No, the public isn't allowed on the land which is located in a town of about 35,000. They can charge me with whatever they want and let a judge or jury decide my innocence.
     

    uncle-buck

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    Oct 18, 2009
    14
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    Houston
    That's the plan, thorkyl. I had quite an extensive email exchange with the local police chief as well as more limited exchanges with the city attorney and an assistant to the city manager. They feel this matter needs to be decided in municipal court.

    Personally, I feel the law is quite clear and that going to municipal court is a waste of time and money (especially my money). As the saying goes, freedom isn't free.
     
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