Michigan School District Lockdown” on Open Carry Parents

[kotetu]

Without exercise, freedoms will atrophy.
If you want to keep them, use them.

I understand, and I agree. Note that I suggested being in communication with the school with regards to your intentions, not that one should not open carry. The idea is not to just show up and make people react because you can - that's obnoxious and counter productive. Look at all of the results of open carry in stores and restaurants. Not shining examples of success.

I really hope the police are better trained and not that f'n stupid...............that is a liberal argument--purge yourself of those evil thoughts.

It's not an argument at all - it's a statement of fact. We both know that no matter how well trained the cops are, they can and do make mistakes, including firing at law abiding citizens. What we're talking about is creating a very high risk situation for one's self and others. Yes, the school would be the ones calling the PD, but it could be possible to avoid that with proper communication and caution. We live in reality, so we had better think with it too.

.... I -seriously- hope that you're being sarcastic, dude.

Up here, the vast majority of cops know and respect the fact that OC of sidearms is legal, even on school grounds. The likelihood of a school getting SWATted because a parent OCs while picking up Johnny, Jack or Laqueesha is slim to fuckin' none. The one time I've seen someone stopped for OCing at school, the stop took all of two minutes - long enough for the cop to check the guys ID and CCW permit. There was no fuss, no rage, crying, screaming - just a simple "Excuse me sir, mind if I check your ID/permit?" followed by "Sorry for having to do this, gotta follow procedure.".

That's very good news! (and really is news to me) It alleviates much of my concern. Most of the country isn't like that as far as I have read in the media.

Besides - abuse of the 911 system is a far, far worse crime, as is filing a false police report, both of which are very likely charges for whatever dumbass actually makes the call.

I agree, abuse of 911 is a serious crime. I doubt you could convict of such abuse though, if no false statements are made, unlike Ritchie lying in the Ohio Walmart.

Abuse of the 911 system is an actual crime, but according to the article, carrying a firearm is not. But according to you, I am wrong??

Irrationality is the problem here, not law abiding citizens.

No, according to me, your actions would be obnoxious. Read my post again. I'm talking about not intentionally pushing their buttons - not making them react and call 911. Instead, get in touch with them so they would know you are coming and not react like that. Turn them into allies instead of making them worse enemies. Make sense?

how is being a law abiding citizen "obnoxious"? Does he not have the right to see his child off to school every day? He said he would show up every day......what law did he break by being "obnoxious"?

Southpaw was pretty clear in his post that his intention would be to make a scene every day until the law enforcement came down on his side against the school. Am I wrong Southpaw? That appears to be what you are saying - that you would put it in their face, making them react over and over again until they get in trouble. That is what I am saying is obnoxious. Read my replies here too - again, not saying don't open carry. Saying don't be obnoxious about it. Keep in touch with the school so there is no reaction.

We are not talking about J walking or spitting on the sidewalk, we are talking about our 2nd Amendment Rights. With your view I am afraid the Constitution can be overrode by any two bit city administrator or School Principal:

Agreed - and our behavior reflects on us and influences our cause. Communicate with the principle and staff, let them know you're going to be carrying, and that it is legal. Meet them in person so they don't freak out. Then carry.

All of this reaction to me saying don't be obnoxious. I guess I should have spelled it out in my first post.

 

[Saltyag2010]

Oh, THAT GUY! last I heard he's doing pretty good. Haven't seen the show in ages, gotta find out what channel it's on up here.


Just had a chat with a state trooper about this bullshit in Huron, he confirmed my suspicions. If the "suspect" turns out to be legal and/or known to the school (i.e a parent of a student who is known to have a CCW permit), then whoever called it in will end up facing some rather serious charges. Anyone think a child endangerment charge could stick?

No child endangerment unless the school faculty gets charged.

 

[Blind Sniper]

Note - while the cops understand the laws on OC, Joe Public is a bit fuzzy. And of course, there's nothing stopping someone from freaking out and calling the cops if they see you with a pistol on your hip. Makes me wish more schools up here still had rifle teams and shooting sports. Hell, there's a couple empty fields out here on campus that'd be great for setting up a skeet/rifle range.

ETA - thanks for that, BC. Odds are it would be faculty that made the call, so we'll see how it plays out...

Personally I hope that if/when the school is locked down because of an OCing parent, the person who calls it in gets every possible charge thrown at them, and that it makes the news for a couple weeks. Getting sick of all the fuckin' liberals up here and the "hurr durr guns are evil" shit. There's a guy in my politics class that blames Detroit's shitty city economy on gang violence and guns, not sure how to respond to that besides a facepalm.

 

[kotetu]

My hope is that the school gets educated without incident and especially over-reaction. Blind Sniper - thanks again for sharing what you know about MI with me. It's new data to me, and makes me much less concerned about this situation.

 

[BIGPAPIGREG]

according to me, your actions would be obnoxious. I'm talking about not intentionally pushing their buttons - not making them react and call 911. Instead, get in touch with them so they would know you are coming and not react like that. Turn them into allies instead of making them worse enemies. Make sense?

Southpaw was pretty clear in his post that his intention would be to make a scene every day until the law enforcement came down on his side against the school. Am I wrong Southpaw? That appears to be what you are saying - that you would put it in their face, making them react over and over again until they get in trouble. That is what I am saying is obnoxious. Read my replies here too - again, not saying don't open carry. Saying don't be obnoxious about it. Keep in touch with the school so there is no reaction.

Why would one have to "keep in touch with the school so there is no reaction" if what they are doing is perfectly legal according to the law? Shouldn't the school know that it is perfectly legal to open carry? It is, after all, the law. Seems to me that even though they know it is legal, they are intent on trying their best to take that legal right away and make a law abiding citizen look like a criminal, as well as someone that should be feared.

EX: The speed limit on the highway is 70 mph max & 60 mph min.......... but I just want to tell all y'all that I will be legally driving at the speed of 65mph for my safety & reassurance. Just so you know.........in case you were wondering

Not intending to sound like an ass or be disrespectful to ya Bigun(I know it sounds like it) but I just don't see the logic in telling everyone what I am doing every time......when the law says that what I am doing is legal is legal.

 

[Southpaw]

Southpaw was pretty clear in his post that his intention would be to make a scene every day until the law enforcement came down on his side against the school. Am I wrong Southpaw? That appears to be what you are saying - that you would put it in their face, making them react over and over again until they get in trouble. That is what I am saying is obnoxious. Read my replies here too - again, not saying don't open carry. Saying don't be obnoxious about it. Keep in touch with the school so there is no reaction.
.

I should have been clear that I was speaking as a parent and placing myself in said situation of dropping off my kid at that school.

But I still don't agree with notifying anyone of something I do legally because it might offend their sensibilities. As far as I am concerned if LE show up and kill anyone, that is on the person who called in a crime before verifying that one was actually in progress.

.

EX: The speed limit on the highway is 70 mph max & 60 mph min.......... but I just want to tell all y'all that I will be legally driving at the speed of 65mph for my safety & reassurance. Just so you know.........in case you were wondering

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Damn brother.. I was thinking of the same thing. Get out of my head!!

 

[Blind Sniper]

I remember either last year or earlier this year there was a kerfuffle over someone a little ways up-state from me actually giving the local LEOs a heads-up that he would be going into his daughter's school with his EDC on his hip. Can't remember how it played out aside from him getting a "Alright, we appreciate the notice" from the cops. Anyone happen to remember that? Think it was posted here at one point.

 

[BIGPAPIGREG]

B. Sniper (didn't want to say BS...) It's legal to carry into a school up there in MI?

 

[Blind Sniper]

B. Sniper (didn't want to say BS...) It's legal to carry into a school up there in MI?

Provided you have a valid in-state CCW, -only- OC, and aren't a student/staff member violating school policy, yes. Good luck not getting bitched at/asked to leave though.

On that note - former principle of the local Catholic HS I attended, used to be a captain in the Corps, rumored to carry a pistol under his jacket. I know for a fact he came armed to school dances. Pisses me off that he got fired, he ran a damn good, tight ship. And as a bonus, we didn't have school on the Corp's birthday

I've been debating if I want to pick up a drop-leg rig and a blue gun to wear around campus to bring awareness to that fact - just not sure if it's a good idea with roughly two dozen state troopers roaming around >.>

 

[BIGPAPIGREG]

that's awesome, good luck with that. Could always just wear the drop-leg with skittles in it.....

 

[Blind Sniper]

LOL, had a feeling someone would say that :P

 

[BIGPAPIGREG]

Damn brother.. I was thinking of the same thing. Get out of my head!!

told ya, we went to different schools together....

 

[kotetu]

Why would one have to "keep in touch with the school so there is no reaction" if what they are doing is perfectly legal according to the law? Shouldn't the school know that it is perfectly legal to open carry? It is, after all, the law. Seems to me that even though they know it is legal, they are intent on trying their best to take that legal right away and make a law abiding citizen look like a criminal, as well as someone that should be feared.

EX: The speed limit on the highway is 70 mph max & 60 mph min.......... but I just want to tell all y'all that I will be legally driving at the speed of 65mph for my safety & reassurance. Just so you know.........in case you were wondering

Not intending to sound like an ass or be disrespectful to ya Bigun(I know it sounds like it) but I just don't see the logic in telling everyone what I am doing every time......when the law says that what I am doing is legal is legal.

Note that I am not suggesting a requirement, so you should ask instead, "why should one keep in touch with the school?"

In every interaction with others you have the possibility of pushing their buttons and triggering a reaction or over-reaction. This is often unavoidable. This time, though, the school has announced ahead of time the conditions of their over-reaction. What I am talking about doing - what I am encouraging - is heading off that over-reaction by solidly communicating with the people ahead of time. At the very least, this provides the openly carrying parent with more to report to the police if they still get called in. Yet, at the most, this could prevent the entire situation.

How is it a bad thing to recommend one get in communication and prevent such a thing from occurring in the first place? Initiating the communication line actually puts you in control of the situation.

Seems to me that even though they know it is legal, they are intent on trying their best to take that legal right away and make a law abiding citizen look like a criminal, as well as someone that should be feared.

I agree, 100%! The point I have been making is that (forgive the puns) if you defuse the situation ahead of time you disarm the opponents of their arguments. Or you convert them, if they are on the fence.

I should have been clear that I was speaking as a parent and placing myself in said situation of dropping off my kid at that school.

But I still don't agree with notifying anyone of something I do legally because it might offend their sensibilities.

That's good clarification, but I am not suggesting this "because it might offend their sensibilities," but because by pre-empting their over-reaction you take control of the situation and possibly prevent that over-reaction from occurring in the first place.

As far as I am concerned if LE show up and kill anyone, that is on the person who called in a crime before verifying that one was actually in progress.

Of course it will be on them. However, using communication you may have the ability to positively influence the situation before it ever comes to that. Perhaps you could even influence the hearts and minds of those very administrators.

Still, given B.S's post above, it sounds like there wouldn't be such an issue, so perhaps this is moot.

 

[Whistler]

In this "reality" thing you speak of, do you seriously think if you contacted the school in advance they would just respond "oh well that's okay then, we'll be sure to make an exception because it's you! Be sure to wear that pink carnation in your lapel so we can recognize you...". Good grief Charlie Brown!

 

[Blind Sniper]

In this "reality" thing you speak of, do you seriously think if you contacted the school in advance they would just respond "oh well that's okay then, we'll be sure to make an exception because it's you! Be sure to wear that pink carnation in your lapel so we can recognize you...". Good grief Charlie Brown!

IIRC, in the case I referred to (still looking for the article, in case anyone wants it), the dad didn't call the school - he called the local PD to double-check the law and give them a heads-up, so they'd know that if a MWAG call came in from that school at that time, odds are it was someone being paranoid/stupid because they saw the father exercising his legal rights.

But yes, he was "cleared", in the sense that the cops confirmed he was in the clear, so he went about his day without issue.

 

[Whistler]

IIRC, in the case I referred to (still looking for the article, in case anyone wants it), the dad didn't call the school - he called the local PD to double-check the law and give them a heads-up, so they'd know that if a MWAG call came in from that school at that time, odds are it was someone being paranoid/stupid because they saw the father exercising his legal rights.

But yes, he was "cleared", in the sense that the cops confirmed he was in the clear, so he went about his day without issue.

Sorry lost me, post #10? I was responding to kotetu's assertion calling the school in advance would defuse the situation or sway their opinion. The school is in my opinion, attempting to exert control and circumvent lawful carry through intimidation. I was a bit facetious about it in an attempt to illustrate the naivety and futility however well intentioned.

 

[Blind Sniper]

Ah, my mistake... For what it's worth, kotetu seems to have come around to the logical side of things.

And yeah, they're definitely trying to pull some major bullshit here.

 

[kotetu]

Whistler my point was to be in communication so that you are covering your bases, whether the school admins come around or not. You did see that I also wrote "At the very least, this provides the openly carrying parent with more to report to the police if they still get called..." right?

Blind Sniper's example is even better. Calling the PD ahead of time would definitely do a better job of diffusing it. I tend to want to work things out among people first, probably why I didn't think of calling the PD in the first place. Thanks yet again Blind Sniper.

 

[CrazedJava]

I think there is a huge difference showing up with an OC handgun and going about your business without making a scene. The administrators are saying they'll call the cops and put the school on lockdown at the mere sight of OC, so call them on their bluff.

I thought the OCT guys were obnoxious and hurt the cause. That was different though. They were getting in people's faces, making a scene, and open carrying rifles while stating it was because they couldn't open carry handguns. Yeah, like the various patrons of the businesses they invaded were worrying about their lack of OC rights while seeing them bringing in those "evil assault weapons" the news keeps telling them about. It was a PR disaster.

I would love to see the school call the cops on some dude who is just showing up to drop off his kids, someone who isn't making a scene, and doing absolutely nothing that could be construed as bad. It would completely expose the administration of the schools as a bunch of pant-wetting ninnies.

I don't like lockdowns anyway. Seems like the wrong plan. Let's force all the kids to stay in the building because there might be a shooter in here with us! Great plan. Seems like an awesome way to increase casualties.

 

[Whistler]

I understand what you're saying kotetu, I just think since they're doing this to intimidate folks into not carrying despite it being legal that they wouldn't be much influenced by a heads-up. Notifying the local PD might be more effective however they tend to be more reactive than proactive, i.e. it might get lost in the shuffle. A phone call is simple and quick, certainly worth the attempt if only to (potentially) avoid the kids having to go through a lock down.