Brandishing of firearm by licensed holder -- laws in Texas

[SIG-SOG]

I do not have a CHL license. I would like to know what the law is regarding pulling your CC gun in an attempt to defuse a "potential" situation that might warrant the use of lethal force.

For example, my wife and I were in the parking lot of an outlet mall smoking a cig before getting in the car to leave; it was late, we were 100+ yards from the store entrance, and most people had already left as the stores were closing. 3 younger people in hoodies, jeans down below their butts (you get the picture) were walking across the parking lot (obviously not coming out of the mall) and their trajectory was a path to pass close to my SUV. They could have easily taken a wider berth(sp?) not coming so close. I figured that if they were to approach us it would be to bum a cigarette or ask for some money, or who knows what could have happened. My nature is not to jump in the car before they got near us, although that would have been a good course of action. Anyway, I had my large SUV key firmly in my fist with the working end of the key poking out of my fist just in case. I turned toward them just to let them know I was aware of them and not afraid. They just walked past us and continued on their way, passing maybe 20 ft. from us.

So take the same situation but assume I have a CHL and am carrying. Also, lets assume that they did attempt to approach us, for whatever reason - good or bad. Can I pull my CC gun and make them aware I am carrying it, or verbally tell them I have a gun, etc. and tell them they should not approach? Even if their purpose was to ask for a piece of gum or whatever?

 

[Fisherman777]

I do not have a CHL license. I would like to know what the law is regarding pulling your CC gun in an attempt to defuse a "potential" situation that might warrant the use of lethal force.

For example, my wife and I were in the parking lot of an outlet mall smoking a cig before getting in the car to leave; it was late, we were 100+ yards from the store entrance, and most people had already left as the stores were closing. 3 younger people in hoodies, jeans down below their butts (you get the picture) were walking across the parking lot (obviously not coming out of the mall) and their trajectory was a path to pass close to my SUV. They could have easily taken a wider berth(sp?) not coming so close. I figured that if they were to approach us it would be to bum a cigarette or ask for some money, or who knows what could have happened. My nature is not to jump in the car before they got near us, although that would have been a good course of action. Anyway, I had my large SUV key firmly in my fist with the working end of the key poking out of my fist just in case. I turned toward them just to let them know I was aware of them and not afraid. They just walked past us and continued on their way, passing maybe 20 ft. from us.

So take the same situation but assume I have a CHL and am carrying. Also, lets assume that they did attempt to approach us, for whatever reason - good or bad. Can I pull my CC gun and make them aware I am carrying it, or verbally tell them I have a gun, etc. and tell them they should not approach? Even if their purpose was to ask for a piece of gum or whatever?

But as scummy as they looked, they didn't do anything wrong. They didn't even speak to you. Why would you pull a gun? Be ready, yes but no need to "jump the gun".

 

[thorkyl]

Texas does not have a "Brandishing" law, what they nail you on is disorderly conduct.

I would have just kept it covered and my hand on it.

Loose enough clothing will allow a IWB to be hands on while keeping covered.

The main thing is to keep your eyes open and don't get tunnel vision.

They may be coming in from the front but don't forget the friends coming in from behind.

With cold weather its tough to call who is a potential threat.
Remember, Houston area does not get cold, so people over bundle and hoodies are common

 

[Young Gun]

No reason to pull a gun or any kind of weapon in that scenario. I get the "vibe" you may have gotten from them, I think I've run into people like that before. But, even though they may act suspicious and look "bad", you can't simply produce a weapon because you may feel threatened. That would make you the aggressor/attacker, and they may even be able to claim self defense if it turned bad and someone got hurt.

I think I would have gotten my wife in the car ASAP, then got myself in the car, and then locked the doors and driven off. You don't have to high-tail it out of there like a scalded dog, but I certainly would get a mvoe on if it looked like trouble was coming.

If that wasn't an option, I would have taken a defensive position (back to vehicle?), placed one hand close to my weapon of choice, and jsut kept an eye out. I often reach my hand in my pocket and leave it there when walking through a questionable neighborhood, or even in my own apartments when it's dark outside. I think it gives me an advantage, should the need arise to draw a weapon, I'm already 50% there (or better) and am ready to draw. If you were fumbling with a cigarette, or just had your hands to your sides, you may waste precious seconds pushing your coat/shirt aside, trying to get to your gun.

 

[txinvestigator]

I do not have a CHL license. I would like to know what the law is regarding pulling your CC gun in an attempt to defuse a "potential" situation that might warrant the use of lethal force.

For example, my wife and I were in the parking lot of an outlet mall smoking a cig before getting in the car to leave; it was late, we were 100+ yards from the store entrance, and most people had already left as the stores were closing. 3 younger people in hoodies, jeans down below their butts (you get the picture) were walking across the parking lot (obviously not coming out of the mall) and their trajectory was a path to pass close to my SUV. They could have easily taken a wider berth(sp?) not coming so close. I figured that if they were to approach us it would be to bum a cigarette or ask for some money, or who knows what could have happened. My nature is not to jump in the car before they got near us, although that would have been a good course of action. Anyway, I had my large SUV key firmly in my fist with the working end of the key poking out of my fist just in case. I turned toward them just to let them know I was aware of them and not afraid. They just walked past us and continued on their way, passing maybe 20 ft. from us.

So take the same situation but assume I have a CHL and am carrying. Also, lets assume that they did attempt to approach us, for whatever reason - good or bad. Can I pull my CC gun and make them aware I am carrying it, or verbally tell them I have a gun, etc. and tell them they should not approach? Even if their purpose was to ask for a piece of gum or whatever?

You SHOULD have gotten in your vehicle as you had the time. You also need to read chapter 9 of the penal code; the Texas use of force laws.

There is too much to cover here, and "what ifs" are seldom productive in this format. There are too many variables.

 

[BT1911]

Also, lets assume that they did attempt to approach us, for whatever reason - good or bad. Can I pull my CC gun and make them aware I am carrying it...

You could. Make sure you have someone who can post your bail for threat with a deadly weapon. Last thing I'd do is say "I don't know you from Adam. You haven't said a word to me and you're walking towards me. I have a gun and am prepared to use it if you come any closer." Why so skittish?

 

[TimberWolf7.62]

My understanding is that you can't show someone your weapon unless you are prepared to use it. Given time, I would have gotten into the vehicle and left. If not possible, I'd have gotten the wife into the driver's seat with the keys, pulled my weapon outside of their sight and held it ready to go but concealed behind my leg as I got into the passenger seat and we vacated the premisis. Even if it's a righteous shooting, you don't want to go through the court system hassle.

 

[txinvestigator]

My understanding is that you can't show someone your weapon unless you are prepared to use it.

That is why "what ifs" and these types of discussions are non-productive. I mean no insult, but what does "prepared to use it" mean? And chapter 9 of the penal code does state that the threat of deadly force does not equal the use of deadly force, if your sole reason to make the threat was to show that you were prepared to use deadly force if necessary. It is waaaay to difficult to try to explain in a forum.

Given time, I would have gotten into the vehicle and left. If not possible, I'd have gotten the wife into the driver's seat with the keys, pulled my weapon outside of their sight and held it ready to go but concealed behind my leg as I got into the passenger seat and we vacated the premisis. Even if it's a righteous shooting, you don't want to go through the court system hassle.

All over guys walking at you? No verbal warnings from you, no nothing?

 

[TimberWolf7.62]

The scenario is that three suspicious looking characters are approaching an isolated couple in a parking lot at night after the stores closed. If you are not reading that as a possible threat situation, then you're not paying attention.

My course of action would be to leave. They were going to leave anyway, as soon as they finished their smokes; I'm just saying to leave a few seconds earlier. As far as having my pistol in my hand but out of sight, I have no problem with that. I'd rather have it in hand and not need it than have it in a holster and no time to get to it.

But then, I wasn't there and maybe my read on the situation is more dire than it was. However, regardless of that, my overall advice was to avoid the situation, which I think is the best advice. There's no reason to get into a situation - argument, shootout, whatever - if it can be avoided. And no, I am not the passive type, I'm a former Marine and have been in "a few" barroom brawls in my youth. I'm just older and wiser now.

 

[majormadmax]

Texas Penal Code §42.01(a)(8) prohibits the display of a firearm in a public place in a “manner calculated to alarm.”

PENAL CODE

TITLE 9. OFFENSES AGAINST PUBLIC ORDER AND DECENCY

CHAPTER 42. DISORDERLY CONDUCT AND RELATED OFFENSES

Sec. 42.01. DISORDERLY CONDUCT. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly:

(8) displays a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm;

...which is exactly what you would have been doing had your branished a firearm in that situation. There was no indentified lethal threat until you drew your firearm, at which time it would be you!

As said, be prepared but don't "jump the gun."

 

[txinvestigator]

Texas Penal Code §42.01(a)(8) prohibits the display of a firearm in a public place in a “manner calculated to alarm.”



...which is exactly what you would have been doing had your branished a firearm in that situation. There was no indentified lethal threat until you drew your firearm, at which time it would be you!

As said, be prepared but don't "jump the gun."

Yep. However, shooting someone is a penal code violation too. If a person tries to stab you and you shoot them and they die, the violation is murder. Chapter 9 provides a "defense to prosecution" for conduct that would otherwise be illegal. So it IS possible to justifiably display your firearm in a manner calculated to alarm, as long as it meets with the justifications in chapter 9.

I don't think this was the case here.

 

[Big country]

I still have seen nothing to warrant pulling a gun in this what if. TI said something a while back in another thread along the lines of, think about how you would have handled the situation before you had a gun if you can safely get out of that situation then that is still your best option. Now I didn't quote that as I'm unsure of the exact text but it is the best advice I've ever heard. And I would also just like to reiterate the use of deadly force be it a knife or a gun is till and should always be a LAST resort! Pepper spray is for maybes. Bullets are final.

 

[DoubleActionCHL]

My nature is not to jump in the car before they got near us, although that would have been a good course of action.

So, your wife is with you, yet you opt to ignore your first and best defensive action: Decision/Avoidance. You obviously feel like these guys are a potential threat, you have time and distance on your side, yet you choose not to act. This inaction places both you and your wife in greater danger if you're correct about the potential threat. Now they're 20 feet away. If one reached in his waistband and pulled out a 9mm, could you react in time to save your life or that of your wife?

The "when do I pull the gun" question so often ignores the force options available to you before the situation requires a response of deadly force.

Use your head and avoid dangerous situations, and you may never have to ask, "When do I pull my gun?"

 

[TxEMTP69]

Definately get in the car and leave while you can. Why is your nature not to get in the car before they got near?

 

[Big country]

Is it in your nature to fight no matter what? Is it your nature to fight three "gangstas" that you already preconceive as a threat that are possibly armed while you are not armed? I'm not attacking I'm just makeing a point.

 

[R_Comstock]

From a law enforcement perspective:

1) Pulling your gun is still considered a "presence" as it pertains to use of force. It is not until you pull the trigger that it becomes "deadly force."
2) If you felt your life was in danger, ABSOLUTELY draw your weapon. That's the purpose of this privilege.
3) Had this gone to court, your CHL status would be lost because there was no articulable threat. (i.e. they were just three kids walking across the parking lot)
4) You should always attempt to calculate a way around a deadly force situation. The Coast Guard, for example has 5 steps leading up to deadly force to be used in lieu of deadly force whenever possible.

And to comment on an earlier post:
An instructor once told me during a training scenario "If your instinct makes your hand move toward your gun, DRAW IT." It makes no sense to walk around with your hand on your gun while it's still in the holster. If you feel threatened enough to touch the gun then you should have it out of the holster.

I am not a lawyer, but I'm a thinker and a federal law enforcement officer...I'm only offering my advice based on my training and experience.

 

[smschulz]

You SHOULD have gotten in your vehicle as you had the time.

Exactly my thought!

 

[A_FIVE-O]

My buddy at work told me a story just like yours, but the signs of wrong doing were there. My buddy, his wife, and 4 year old kid were in Chicago visiting. They were walking in a not so great location and he saw two bums/crackheads watching them. One bum signaled to the other and he started to cut a path in front of my buddy while the other bum came across behind them. My buddy said he knew they were up to no good, so he brushed his shirt up to show his stainless SIG on his right hip. He said the bum behind him saw the pistol and waived off the other bum that cut across in front of them. My buddy said he had no doubt they were going to be robbed. He said the reason he brandished his weapon was because he didn't want to smoke two crackheads in front of his daughter. I think she she would have been traumatized. I asked what if he was by himself, he said he would have smoked them fools, if indeed they were trying to rob him. Its different in every scenario. When your blood is rushing and that "oh shit" factor kicks in everyone acts differently. I use to think my agency trained too much, but the more you train the better you are prepared when the "pucker factor" begins. LOL! BTW, he is a LEO too if that makes a difference.

 

[SIG-SOG]

Yep. However, shooting someone is a penal code violation too. If a person tries to stab you and you shoot them and they die, the violation is murder. Chapter 9 provides a "defense to prosecution" for conduct that would otherwise be illegal. So it IS possible to justifiably display your firearm in a manner calculated to alarm, as long as it meets with the justifications in chapter 9.

I don't think this was the case here.

....if a person tries to stab you and you shoot them and they die, the violation is murder.----huh? What the &*^%^&% is there any worth in carrying a gun CHL if you can't protect yourself against someone stabbing you????? Is that really what you meant?

Appreciate all the replies to the scenario I presented.

 

[txinvestigator]

....if a person tries to stab you and you shoot them and they die, the violation is murder.----huh? What the &*^%^&% is there any worth in carrying a gun CHL if you can't protect yourself against someone stabbing you????? Is that really what you meant?

.

That is exactly what I meant. Read the murder law. If you intentionally or knowingly cause the death of another, it is murder.

Texas Penal Code
Sec. 19.02. MURDER. (a) In this section:
(1) "Adequate cause" means cause that would commonly produce a degree of anger, rage, resentment, or terror in a person of ordinary temper, sufficient to render the mind incapable of cool reflection.
(2) "Sudden passion" means passion directly caused by and arising out of provocation by the individual killed or another acting with the person killed which passion arises at the time of the offense and is not solely the result of former provocation.
(b) A person commits an offense if he:
(1) intentionally or knowingly causes the death of an individual;
(2) intends to cause serious bodily injury and commits an act clearly dangerous to human life that causes the death of an individual; or
(3) commits or attempts to commit a felony, other than manslaughter, and in the course of and in furtherance of the commission or attempt, or in immediate flight from the commission or attempt, he commits or attempts to commit an act clearly dangerous to human life that causes the death of an individual.
(c) Except as provided by Subsection (d), an offense under this section is a felony of the first degree.
(d) At the punishment stage of a trial, the defendant may raise the issue as to whether he caused the death under the immediate influence of sudden passion arising from an adequate cause. If the defendant proves the issue in the affirmative by a preponderance of the evidence, the offense is a felony of the second degree.

No where in there is there an exception for when a person tries to stab you, is there? It is important to know, that in the penal code chapter 9 tells you when conduct that is otherwise illegal would be justified. However, ALL justification in chapter 9 is a defense to prosecution, meaning you have to PROVE that your conduct met the justifications.



The prosecution has to prove that you caused the death of another; he does not have to negate the defense you might have in chapter 9.


The burden of proof for self defense is on the person claiming self defense.