The 14" Mossberg shotgun that isn't NFA

[Nightwatch]

Sorry the facts upset you.

 

[diesel1959]

I like those in my 590, but I can't find them anywhere for the last couple of months. Everybody is out of stock, except for E-Bay, where they are selling them by the case for $1.50 a round.

I'm sitting on a stockpile of the #7.5 (for practice) and mixed buckshot rounds (for defense). I do want to get some of the slugs, but they cost a bit more than any of the other mini-shells.

 

[V-Tach]

Shockwaves and Tac 14's are not logged in to a dealers bound book as a "shotgun". They are logged in as "other firearm". A person cannot take a "shotgun" (full stock shotgun or pistol grip shotgun) and cut the barrel to 14 inches, no matter how long the grip is. It would be considered a short barreled shotgun and subject to NFA.

jmho...

 

[V-Tach]

If the receiver was manufactured and reported to BATFE at the time of it's manufacture as a shotgun, pistol grip or full stock, the barrel cannot be the cut down to 14 inches, without being subject to NFA.

...and again, only my humble opinion.......

If it reported as only a "receiver", and sold as a "receiver" then yes..or built and sold as "other firearm"

Example: we bought some Black Aces receivers, that were manufactured and sold as "receivers". We can take those receivers and build Serbu type firearms as an AOW and a it would require a 5 dollar tax stamp. If I take a "shotgun receiver" and do the same thing, it is a Short Barreled Shotgun and subject to a 200 dollar tax stamp. Or...I could also do what Remington and Mossberg are doing with my Black Aces receivers and no tax stamp.

Mossberg and Remington are using loop holes in the regs.

It's a technicality......but what you don't know could get you ten years in the pokey....

Just because it has a pistol grip alone, doesn't mean it can be cut down to 14 inches. If you don't know how the manufacturer originally registered it with BATFE when it was manufactured and sold as............

 

[Nightwatch]

From the ATF FFL newsletter Nov 2009:


'Certain commercially produced firearms do not fall within


the definition of shotgun under the GCA even though

they utilize a shotgun shell for ammunition. For example,

firearms that come equipped with a pistol grip in place of

the buttstock are not shotguns as defined by the GCA.

A firearm with a pistol grip in lieu of the shoulder stock is

not designed to be fired from the shoulder and, therefore,

is not a shotgun. Since it is a firearm “other than a rifle or

shotgun,” the purchaser must be 21 years of age or older.

Additionally, interstate controls apply. The licensee and

transferee must be residents of the same State.

Other questions raised pertain to entries made in the

licensee’s required records with respect to firearm “type.”

These entries should indicate the firearm type as “pistol grip

firearm.” '

Another ATF letter referenced in the OP here says that it is not under GCA a shotgun if it never had a shoulder stock-doesn't fit the definition. That letter further says if it is a PGO, barrel length is not considered except as part of the overall length of at least 26". http://www.nfaoa.org/documents/PistolGrippedShotgunLike.pdf

Mossberg doesn't call their PGO line shotguns-doesn't sell them as such-they list with other weapons.

 

[V-Tach]

You are more knowledgeable on the subject than I

My apologies....

 

[Nightwatch]

I just go by what the ATF rules, and follow the law...works for me and always has. Why get personal?

 

[V-Tach]

Not personal in any way...

So...Joe Blow buys a pistol grip firearm that shoots 12 ga. from a pawn shop. He sees your post and cuts it down to 14 inches and adds a birds head grip.....He gets stopped by LEO. They measure the barrel..14 inches. They run the firearm....The firearm was built and sold originally as a shotgun and someone at some time put a pistol grip on it and took the stock off.

He just committed a Felony and will go to jail...

Yes or no?

 

[Nightwatch]

Yes. He will go to jail...but in my post I CLEARLY quoted the ATF, the GCA, and their rulings...and others before me CLEARLY said the weapon must have NEVER had a shoulder stock...if he reads all that's here or just my post...and doesn't care enough to make sure it was a pistol grip at time of manufacture or not, he's the blame. You can't fault the ones who told him how to do it right-just because he did it wrong.

That's why knowing and following what the law and ATF rulings actually say matters...on that we can agree.

 

[V-Tach]

Scenerio 2:

Guy buys a Mossberg shotgun with 28 in. barrel and 18 1/4 inch. barrel. It was registered sold as a shotgun. Can the person put on a birds head grip and cut the 18 1/4 barrel down to 14 inches and be legal with that shotgun?

Felony?

 

[V-Tach]

How do people know if a used pistol grip shotgun ever had a shoulder stock?

Not picking a fight.....honestly.....but people damn well better know exactly what they are doing when cutting a barrel down below 18 inches..

Randy Weaver comes to mind...and his wasn't less than 18 inches...

 

[V-Tach]

That's why knowing and following what the law and ATF rulings actually say matters...on that we can agree.

Yes Sir, I agree we can agree...cheers!

 

[Nightwatch]

Scenerio 2:

Guy buys a Mossberg shotgun with 28 in. barrel and 18 1/4 inch. barrel. It was registered sold as a shotgun. Can the person put on a birds head grip and cut the 18 1/4 barrel down to 14 inches and be legal with that shotgun?

Felony?

That's already been well covered-if it is a shotgun(manuf. and shipped with shoulder stock, even if a pistol grip is included)...no, he can't.
The key is shotgun. If it was shipped meeting the definition of a shotgun under GCA, it will always be a shotgun, and a stamp is required to do what you suggest.

 

[TinCuda]

Just a point of note.

http://www.mossberg.com/category/series/500-cruiser/

Mossberg does not use the word "Shotgun" one time on their website page with the Pistol Grip Only (PGO) firearms.


.,

 

[Nightwatch]

How do people know if a used pistol grip shotgun ever had a shoulder stock?

Not picking a fight.....honestly.....but people damn well better know exactly what they are doing when cutting a barrel down below 18 inches..

Randy Weaver comes to mind...and his wasn't less than 18 inches...

It's their responsibility to find out-I'd write the Mfgr. for a proof letter. I've never needed a barrel shorter than 18 1/4", but if it was that important to me-damn right I'd have proof. The ATF can make lunch on them small details.
I don't know what Weaver's was but I know he'd really POed the po-po, and any nit they could pick was gonna get picked.

When I had my FFL, I made cops mad when they thought the rules didn't mean "all that much".
I passed all my pawn shop annual audits...because I knew details matter. I've had ATF deal with dealers who thought the fine points didn't matter as much as what they wanted. I'm a firm believer in knowing exactly what the law says...especially when they start at 5 years and move up for getting it wrong.

Lately, that's been a bit like "pin the tail on the alligator"...it moves around and changes pretty often.

 

[V-Tach]

Again, my apologies for not being concise......

If someone buys a pistol grip shotgun...it doesn't automatically mean they can cut it below 18 inches.......it all depends on how the manufacturer recorded it with BATFE at the time of manufacture....

If you aren't 100% certain...don't cut it...

That was my only point.......you guys know what the laws are and have a good grasp of it....

Awesome debate!

 

[M2 Carbine]

Just a point of note.

http://www.mossberg.com/category/series/500-cruiser/

Mossberg does not use the word "Shotgun" one time on their website page with the Pistol Grip Only (PGO) firearms.


.,

If the gun was sold by the dealer as a "Long Gun" on the 4473 you had better not play "Gray Area" with the ATF.

Remember Randy Weaver and WACO.
The ATF will kill you (and get away with it) over "Gray Areas".

I bought this PGO Winchester second hand. I know it came from Winchester with only the pistol grip and 18 inch barrel (over 26 inches length).
I'd bet the farm it WAS NOT sold (on the 4473) as a "Other Firearm".
Although I would like to cut it down, I'd be a damned fool to take that chance and cut it down.
(Not even considering I could buy a new Shockwave for less).

 

[Renegade]

If someone buys a pistol grip shotgun...it doesn't automatically mean they can cut it below 18 inches.......it all depends on how the manufacturer recorded it with BATFE at the time of manufacture....

If you aren't 100% certain...don't cut it...

That was my only point.......you guys know what the laws are and have a good grasp of it....

Awesome debate!

Well here is another law most people do not know about. If the bore is over .500, it is a destructive device, and requires NFA registration, unless you have a sporting use exemption. striker-12, Street Sweeper for example.

 

[Nightwatch]

Surely is, but in all the discussions between mfgr/ATF, that subject hasn't been brought up concerning PGO firearms. I guess they're waiting for me to do one and then make me their poster child...I ain't gonna do it. What's more, the sporting exemption's only for shotguns-which these ain't.

 

[Renegade]

What's more, the sporting exemption's only for shotguns-which these ain't.

If the bore is over .500, you need a sporting exemption - rifle, shotgun, pistol, firearm, etc., does not matter.

eta - There are some other exemptions, antique firearms, black powder, industrial, etc.

eta2 - I misunderstood what you wrote. Yes, the general sporting exemption only applies to shotguns, and these are not shotguns, so an additional level of scrutiny would be applied.