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Hypothetical situation

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  • Huntindoc

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    It seems to me you missed several very important cues.

    This whole thing was hinky from the start. Listen to that little voice telling you something is wrong.

    First: Never meet at a school. Anytime I am buying or selling I expect to be robbed and I "roll heavy." Not the time to be around children.

    Second: Never meet somewhere you are not familiar with. You can google any location and use google earth to look around even if it is not your town. If it looks even a little suspect. Change the meeting place.

    Third: Arrive early. If you don't like the looks of the place, leave and meet somewhere else. If they won't adjust to a more favorable spot. Walk away.

    Last: When he starts pocketing the money and he has not handed your property back, be prepared to draw. When he reaches for his jacket bottom hem or another pocket he is drawing a weapon. Bust off the X right then while drawing. Put 5 rounds in his right ear.
     
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    Shady

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    I can believe a criminal would kill for a $300 phone.

    I can't see a good person shooting someone over the same phone.
     

    dsgrey

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    I can believe a criminal would kill for a $300 phone.

    I can't see a good person shooting someone over the same phone.

    True be sometimes its self defense. Just Google on "Dallas offer up shooting" and you'll see multiple occurrences of someone selling a phone and the seller gets shot. 10 years ago I didn't worry about selling anything on Craigslist but now the untraceable meet-up selling apps require taking a huge risk.
     

    Huntindoc

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    To correct some misconceptions: If you read my post you will notice that if you followed the first 3 statements you would not have been in the life threatening situation in the first place. I have bought and sold several firearms and other items from online boards and have never had anything but the most pleasant interactions with buyers or sellers. I have walked away from anything that did not pass the smell test.

    Next: I would never kill someone over property. If someone demonstrates by their actions they are threatening my life or that of my family they have forfeited theirs by their actions, not mine. This if different from a snatch and grab. I may give chase or even throw something but I would not shoot because my life is not in danger.

    To those who think that a burst of rounds constitutes "too much" lethal force, I would ask them to present any actual case where a civilian or LEO was found guilty of murder just because he or she used more than 1-2 rounds instead of a burst of 5. I am not talking about the cases where someone added a coup de grace to the head after the attacker was down. Just during the initial exchange. I'll wait..... But to save you and me time, it has never happened.

    A burst of rounds is standard in the days of attackers wearing body armor and the head and face is the primary target. Get some training and practice regularly. But most of all, be aware. Don't go around oblivious to the obvious signs that something is wrong.
     

    Maverick44

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    He did this 3 or 4 times before me, and then one or two more after lol. It may be longer than 6 months but I️ have no idea tbh


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Theoretically, if they really wanted to throw the book at him, they could make it so that he never sees the light of day again. Robbery carries a sentence of 2-20 years. Aggravated robbery on the other hand carries a sentence of 5-99 years. He exhibited a deadly weapon, so he committed aggravated robbery. If he did that numerous times, well you can do the math.

    Of course they're probably just going to give him some stupid plea deal. Possibly less than 10 years.
     

    Younggun

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    To correct some misconceptions: If you read my post you will notice that if you followed the first 3 statements you would not have been in the life threatening situation in the first place. I have bought and sold several firearms and other items from online boards and have never had anything but the most pleasant interactions with buyers or sellers. I have walked away from anything that did not pass the smell test.

    Next: I would never kill someone over property. If someone demonstrates by their actions they are threatening my life or that of my family they have forfeited theirs by their actions, not mine. This if different from a snatch and grab. I may give chase or even throw something but I would not shoot because my life is not in danger.

    To those who think that a burst of rounds constitutes "too much" lethal force, I would ask them to present any actual case where a civilian or LEO was found guilty of murder just because he or she used more than 1-2 rounds instead of a burst of 5. I am not talking about the cases where someone added a coup de grace to the head after the attacker was down. Just during the initial exchange. I'll wait..... But to save you and me time, it has never happened.

    A burst of rounds is standard in the days of attackers wearing body armor and the head and face is the primary target. Get some training and practice regularly. But most of all, be aware. Don't go around oblivious to the obvious signs that something is wrong.

    I didn't question the round count. I questioned your decision to use lethal force. The picture you painted doesn't justify its use, IMO.

    You gonna be in trouble when you state he was reaching for a gun but it turns out he only had another cell phone in his pocket.
     

    easy rider

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    It's certainly easy sitting at a computer and hypothesize a situation. I would like to think, although I would be angry, that even losing a phone and walking away from a situation like that unscathed is a good day.
     

    karlac

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    I didn't question the round count. I questioned your decision to use lethal force. The picture you painted doesn't justify its use, IMO.

    You gonna be in trouble when you state he was reaching for a gun but it turns out he only had another cell phone in his pocket.

    Or hope it's dark in Texas ...
     

    Huntindoc

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    Certainly the best way to win the battle is not to fight it. Hence the first 3/4 of my original post. As for those who think that I (or you) would be "in trouble" if I responded with lethal force in the manner I stated at the end I would ask you to research how many LEOs have been convicted for shooting someone who reached for their wallet or phone against the officers instructions. It really has to do with whether you can articulate your perception of the situation effectively. You do not need to be correct in that perception.
    For example, simply stating "I met him here to sell him a phone. I thought he was reaching for a gun so I shot him."
    As opposed to "Officer, thank God you are here. I though I was going to die. That man lured me here to this remote place in order under the pretext of buying a phone from me then robbed me and attempted to kill me." Follow that with a thoughtful explanation of how initially the plan to meet here sounded very reasonable and safe but that you were not familiar with the area so you had no idea it was so remote. When he showed up without a vehicle you started to wonder but he looked like a nice, clean cut guy so you decided to proceed but you were still weary. Then describe how his actions, words and body language started setting warning bells off that things were not right and you started looking for a way out. "He then pocketed my phone he was going to purchase and the money he was to pay me with. I knew then he was robbing me. I was ready to run at that point. Then he made a sudden, deliberate move to lift up his jacket (reach in his pocket and started pulling something out) (reached behind his back, whatever) and I knew he was reaching for a weapon to kill me."

    One response will buy you a one way ticket to jail and a trial. The other you will go home, probably right after your statement.
     

    Younggun

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    It's not whether or not you felt there was an eminent threat of serious bodily harm, it's whether a reasonable person would. It only takes a DA thinking there is a good possibility of conviction to bankrupt you in court, regardless of whether you win or lose.
     

    Huntindoc

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    Younggun, I am sorry but I just don't buy that line of thinking anymore. You are partially correct. It is what a reasonable person would believe and that first reasonable person to hear your story is a police officer. If you are able to articulate in terms he or she understands they are unlikely to recommend to the DA to file charges. But even if you get a DA with a chip on their shoulder before you get to court you get to tell your story to 12 (reasonable) members of a grand jury. You only need to convince 4 of them that there is not enough reason to file charges to be "No Billed". Assuming any physical evidence is consistent with your statement and you were not breaking the law in any other way during the event and you don't say something stupid, you will likely be fine. I am also assuming folks have not had any prior legal problems.

    Keep in mind: The thief DID have a gun and had done this several times to other people prior. Do you really believe that in the context of this entire case you would be prosecuted? I would direct you to some of the excellent writings of Gabe Suarez on the subject of the use of lethal force. I think you will find them enlightening. Also consider training with Jon Payne who is a member here if you get the chance. He is excellent.

    As a final note, I would have folks re-read the OP. At the end of the initial encounter instead of the thief brandishing a gun and then turning and walking into the brush, substitute he pulled out a gun and shot the OP twice in the chest at contact range. Does anyone still think that the OP did a good job? All's well that ends well?

    Luck re-enforces bad tactics. I thank the OP for posting this as I believe he realizes the only reason he is alive is that the thief decided not to kill him. It was not the OPs actions that preserved his life. I am very glad you (the OP) are safe. I believe in Guardian Angels. You may believe in Luck. But we all need to learn from this.

    I hope this helps someone and that everyone has a safe and Blessed Thanksgiving. I am done with this thread.
     

    PrymeTyme37

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    Personally, the minute I see someone pull a gun out even if it's just to brandish it, I take that as a deadly threat. If he turns and walks away then I may just let him go, but it would be hard to not want to stop the guy because no one knows what his next move would be. Is he going to commit another similar crime? Is he going to use that phone to aid him in it? No one knows. If I can stop the guy, then I will. Showing a gun from a normal situation is automatically a crime. If I see a gun and it's not at a gun store or at a range or at a trusted friend or family members house, then I take it as "This person could possibly use this gun to hurt me" and I will do whatever I can to stop the crime being committed and any crime that could be committed afterward.
     

    Brains

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