What kind of training do you want?

[Wildcat Diva]

some how i typed in the quote....

I’ll answer what you typed inside the quote. Yes, I continue to work on basics, refining grip, stance, mechanics of clearing jams, changing mags efficiently, draw, shot placement.

As far as what I have done to locate training: I have networked with people and looked at websites and asked questions and paid for and attended monthly Saturday morning classes for the past year. I will go to a class at Pearland shooting Club this Saturday. I spend time with an NRA instructor twice a month who isn’t stingy with her tips and knowledge, which she will tweak to apply to my specific scenario. I also have located an in-state conference to be held within the next three months that will offer four days of training that it seems I would find valuable and that I can afford and likely attend.

As far as other training: I watch YouTube videos. I read books. Just last night learned a strategy that may help me in my quest to learn to shoot with both eyes open. Holding the firearm starting close to your face, to have your eyes grasp the front sight and then pushing out to continue to track it (to train your eyes). I have not tried it yet.

 

[Wildcat Diva]

i'll try from a different angle. You cannot train yourself. By training yourself you presume to have the knowledge already that you are attempting to impart on yourself. IF that is true, you wouldn't require the training.

I disagree with the assertion that you cannot train yourself. There is such a thing as trial and error, problem solving, and learning from experiences and results.

 

[Roach011]

I'm not going to argue that getting personal training from an instructor isn't the better course, but telling me I cannot train myself is fallacy.

You cannot train yourself. you can practice. The trainer would need the knowledge to train someone else. IF you had the knowledge, you wouldn't need to train, just practice. Training requires a feedback loop, you cannot effectively provide that to yourself either.

 

[Roach011]

I disagree with the assertion that you cannot train yourself. There is such a thing as trial and error, problem solving, and learning from experiences and results.

1 - someone has knowledge
2 - someone passes that knowledge on through training
3 - you have that knowledge
4 - you practice what you've learned.

you cannot just do step 3 and 4.[/QUOTE]

 

[easy rider]

You cannot train yourself. you can practice. The trainer would need the knowledge to train someone else. IF you had the knowledge, you wouldn't need to train, just practice. Training requires a feedback loop, you cannot effectively provide that to yourself either.

I'm not sure you understand what training is. I teach welding and I could tell you to read 100 books about welding and you can possibly learn more about welding then I know, but does that mean you can weld? No. Until you strike an arc and apply that knowledge do you train yourself to weld. I don't actual train people as much as give them the knowledge at a given moment to train themselves. No two people weld exactly the same, they have to learn what works and what doesn't work for themselves. The same can be applied to most anything.

 

[Roach011]

I'm not sure you understand what training is. I teach welding and I could tell you to read 100 books about welding and you can possibly learn more about welding then I know, but does that mean you can weld? No. Until you strike an arc and apply that knowledge do you train yourself to weld. I don't actual train people as much as give them the knowledge at a given moment to train themselves. No two people weld exactly the same, they have to learn what works and what doesn't work for themselves. The same can be applied to most anything.

i completely disagree with you. I'm not going to continue to repeat myself, it doesn't add to the conversation at this point.

 

[Wildcat Diva]

1) you gather knowledge from your environment
2) interface with your environment with what you know in mind
3) notice the results
4) problem solve with your new knowledge in mind
5) interface again.

Repeat 3-5.

 

[Roach011]

1) you gather knowledge from your environment
2) interface with your environment with what you know in mind
3) notice the results
4) problem solve with your new knowledge in mind
5) interface again.

Repeat 3-5.

YES YES YES YES YES. NOOWWWWW WE ARE ON TRACK!

you have received (potentially) BAD TRAINING or INEFFECTIVE TRAINING because you have only consulted your environment and experiences! AND you have continued to practice that (potentially) bad training! this leads to #6 - self evaluate skill levels. If you have never experienced good training, you will never know what bad training is! Without experiencing information from new sources, you'll never know if you are doing ANYTHING correct. Contrary to the relativist ideals, there are rights and wrongs in this world. You'll never know wrong if you've never been shown right!

 

[easy rider]

1 - someone has knowledge
2 - someone passes that knowledge on through training
3 - you have that knowledge
4 - you practice what you've learned.

you cannot just do step 3 and 4.

[/QUOTE]
Baloney, if that were the case we would still be living in caves. Trial and error is self taught. I can learn to do something that nobody has done before, not sure what that would be, but people throughout history has shown that. As I said knowledge is learning, applying that knowledge is training.

 

[Wildcat Diva]

It’s all in the result. Do you like the result? That defines good and bad for me as far as training goes. If I use “bad” form, yet my result is bad-ass, who cares? For me, good means I like the result and the result satisfies me, and serves me well long term.

 

[Wildcat Diva]

With that being said, someone taking the time to help me is very valuable. I’ve had LOADs of $5 meetings with someone who has helped me very much long term. It’s not been fast. But it’s been cheap AND effective.

 

[Roach011]

It’s all in the result. Do you like the result? That defines good and bad for me as far as training goes. If I use “bad” form, yet my result is bad-ass, who cares? For me, good means I like the result and the result satisfies me, and serves me well long term.

That's an interesting question...what makes good technique good? Performance over time, in adverse conditions and use of body mechanics/principles that apply across a majority of people. bad techniques are good until they fail, OR they are just bad and ineffective, though those tend to get toss quickly. Its the bad technique that works "most of the time" you need to watch out for.

The issue with "its good enough for me" is that you're frame of reference might be the size of a thumb tack. You might not know what "good" even is. But, compared to people who are all worse than you, good becomes you. Compare that to people who are better than you and good becomes them, not you. Good is relative to your experiences. In a concealed carry context...good enough is relative to the criminal you might face...that is indefinable yet MOST people define it easily and without thought. why? lack of knowledge and perspective i'd suggest.

The entire point, you can learn from more experienced people and expand your frame of reference through training. When that happens, your practice changes, you change. All for the better.

 

[Younggun]

She's simply saying that the same process can happen through self diagnosis. Much like Easy Rider pointed out that you can read books and expand your frame of reference in order to improve.

Sometimes paying for a high speed/low drag class can increase the speed you learn something, and sometimes you pay someone who you believe is "good" because they feed you scenarios in which their knowledge works not realizing they are basing their ideas on a frame of reference the size of a thumb tack.

I've never taken any training on long range precision shooting. I've read books, I've tried things. I've had bad days at the range and figured out what made them bad. I've had good days and figured out what made them good. If I were simply practicing I would have repeated the same technique for years and wouldn't never have gotten better than that technique would allow. That is what practicing is, simply learning a specific action. Over the years my technique has been modified and improved as I learned things. some from myself, some from outside sources, very little from anyone standing beside me and critiquing my process.

Having a GOOD instructor can and usually does help you improve much faster, but it's not the only way to train.

 

[Roach011]

She's simply saying that the same process can happen through self diagnosis. Much like Easy Rider pointed out that you can read books and expand your frame of reference in order to improve.

Sometimes paying for a high speed/low drag class can increase the speed you learn something, and sometimes you pay someone who you believe is "good" because they feed you scenarios in which their knowledge works not realizing they are basing their ideas on a frame of reference the size of a thumb tack.

I've never taken any training on long range precision shooting. I've read books, I've tried things. I've had bad days at the range and figured out what made them bad. I've had good days and figured out what made them good. If I were simply practicing I would have repeated the same technique for years and wouldn't never have gotten better than that technique would allow. That is what practicing is, simply learning a specific action. Over the years my technique has been modified and improved as I learned things. some from myself, some from outside sources, very little from anyone standing beside me and critiquing my process.

Having a GOOD instructor can and usually does help you improve much faster, but it's not the only way to train.

I reject that reading a book can be training because it leaves out the feedback loop which is necessary part of learning any physical techniques. People can adapt to doing this badly and "make it work". That doesn't make it correct.

you're speaking a lot about why you don't need training from an instructor but yet very little experience with it....why do you feel like you can speak on the topic? Have you ever compared yourself to someone in the same discipline that has utilized training to progress? How did you compare?

 

[benenglish]

...but obviously you would just avoid that?

Yes.

What do you do, if anything to locate high quality training that suits your desires?

I re-take the Brian Zins/Andy Moody clinic every time it's convenient. For it's purpose, there is no higher quality course.

Less intense training I've generally found via the "Hey, bud, I know this guy who's a good trainer and he has an opening in his class this weekend. Wanna go?" route. If I trust the person making the recommendation, I've been known to grab my gear and head out.

 

[benenglish]

By definition you cannot train on your own.

You cannot train yourself.

You can not train yourself.

There are other paths, young padawan.

Formal instruction saves time but whatever is being taught must come from somewhere. A little review of how the Big Bear Leatherslaps morphed into the Southwestern Combat Pistol Leage that gave rise to The Modern Technique might help you open up to the notion that sometimes the best way forward is to find it on your own. This is true not just of whole schools of thought/technique but, and far more often, for personal journeys into competence.

 

[avvidclif]

I need training on getting my butt out to the range more often and practicing. At least for pistol shooting. Precision Rifle is another deal but finding training other than reading is hard to do. Unless you want to travel and spend mega-bucks. Nope, it's just for fun for me, not competetion.

 

[Younggun]

I reject that reading a book can be training because it leaves out the feedback loop which is necessary part of learning any physical techniques. People can adapt to doing this badly and "make it work". That doesn't make it correct.

So what makes what the trainer is teaching correct? How do you know he has not simply adapted a bad way of doing things to "make it work"?

I would venture to say that every correct way of doing anything has come from people making adaptations to a poor way of doing something until they found a good way of doing it.

you're speaking a lot about why you don't need training from an instructor

Define need.

but yet very little experience with it....

I have lots of experience with training. I've trained in many things with instructors. Some related to violent confrontations, some related to handling hazardous materials. I know the results of training as you define it.

why do you feel like you can speak on the topic?

For the same basic reason that you do, I simply have a different opinion.

Have you ever compared yourself to someone in the same discipline that has utilized training to progress? How did you compare?

Using your definition of training...better than some, worse than some. Varies by the training time, quality of training, and attitude of the person I'm being compared to, etc.

Also worth noting, I specifically said that training with an instructor can help you progress faster. Physical training (exercise) would likely vastly improve my abilities, something that will not require an instructor.

I've not once argued that if you want to become as proficient as possible, as quickly as possible that quality training would not be beneficial. You seem to be hung up with the belief that anyone who believes training with an instructor isn't a necessity also beliefs training isn't helpful. I've not seen anyone make that argument.

 

[benenglish]

A surprisingly middle-of-the-road take on this subject, posted mainly because I know that just the sight of this guy infuriates some people.

 

[Wildcat Diva]

Training “correctly” isn’t always black or white. There are degrees of correctness, and what is correct for one person might not work for another.

Example: So as far as training, this video makes some points. Appendix carry was discussed. This guy didn’t like that appendix carry has your gun pointed at a major artery, yet he does admit that it’s very accessible in this position, which is also a factor to consider.



If you shot yourself while drawing, well maybe you can say that appendix carry wasn’t a ‘correct’ position. Or maybe there were other factors. Or maybe I decide that it’s too big a risk with the artery thing and I decide that no matter what, appendix carry is ‘incorrect.”

Also. I am quite sure this guy would not be able to tell me how to effectively conceal carry and draw, etc for my mode of everyday dress/ holster and body shape, being a woman. His wife might have some ideas, but I’m not built like her and I don’t choose to carry behind my back like she does.

I’ve trained myself to conceal carry with a way that some what works for me. No one taught me, but I did get a few pointers along the way.

I guess “correct” with regard to this means that I have my gun on my body almost always, and I have considered safety with trigger covered and good retention, and I don’t shoot my own body or bystanders, and draw quickly if I ever need it. I may not know the final result ever, actually, in considering ‘correct’ and ‘ incorrect’ with this.

I’m not sure how much of this for me can be trained by other people. In some instances, they can just give me pointers to consider and practice.