SMLE MK III models

[sobi1998]

I've been wanting a MK iii SMLE for a while. I was at cabelas today in their gun library. They had two examples.
1. Lithgow MK III $400
2. Birmingham (BSA) SHT LE I** MK III $400
The lithgow did not have a matching stock and was missing a couple small screws on the top.
The other one looked much older and/or worn
The BSA was worn on the grip where the date and crown would be
Can anyone give me more info about them in general?

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[Moonpie]

Price ammo betore you leap.

 

[sobi1998]

Price ammo betore you leap.

At this store they only had 2 brands, PPU and herders. Both $18-20rd. Soft point


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[Jakashh]

Price ammo betore you leap.

hence why I'd like an ishapore enfield for my first, or a "regular" one that I won't shoot often l o l

 

[MTA]

hence why I'd like an ishapore enfield for my first, or a "regular" one that I won't shoot often l o l

I might be selling an Ishapore Enfield in the near future if you ever get up to DFW

 

[Moonpie]

OP, check the bores thoroughly. If the bores look like a rusty sewer pipe, pass.
Get a headspace check if you can.
The Lithgow looks like a WWII era gun with the coachwood stock.
The other is a WW1 era gun but its been rebuilt as it has a WW2 cocking knob and non windage adjustable rear sight.
Very common to see that.
Of the two the Lithgow is the better made gun.
There are literally about a dozen variations of Enfield as well as several different makers. Some rare, some very common.
The No.1 MkIII and No.1 MkIII*** are the most common.
The MkIII had a magazine cut off and windage adjustable rear sight. The early ones even had a "volley sight" attached on the side of the forearm. These were intended for very long range fire(1500yds+). They were pretty much useless and deleted on later models.
The MkIII*** deleted these as a war time expedient that became standard.
The Enfield buttstock came in several lengths. They could be changed to fit the troops the rifles were going to be used by.
Reloading for them isn't difficult but brass life is short.
The guns were built with sloppy chambers. These were combat rifles. They had to work in the mud and blood so chambers were oversized. Brass re-use was a non issue. Add in umpteem bazillion rounds fired in them and being near 100yrs old and your nice new factory brass gets the guts stretched out of it.
Its very common to see a bulge on the base of fired cases.
There will be many small stamps on the barrel, action body, bolt etc. These tell a story and can be quite a puzzle. They are proof marks, property marks, sold off surplus marks, etc.
Ideally the action body, bolt, rear sight leaf, stock, will have matching numbers but most do not. These rifles were used by the United Kingdom and other militaries for over fifty years and have been rebuilt many times over.
The No.4 rifles came along just before WW2.
No.1 rifles headspace are set by the removable bolt head. A competent armorer had to very carefully hone down the bolt head to get the headspace correct.
The No.4 rifles had different size bolt heads to facilitate faster and easier headspace setting.
The cocking knob on WW1 era rifles is round. The WW2 era cocking piece is flat with serrations.
If you really want to get into Brit Enfields I'd suggest you spend the $ and buy Skinnerton's book. It's the Enfield bible.
I warn you. These damn things are as bad as Lugers!

 

[Berthier]

Headspace is over fretted about. More problems have been created by people checking headspace than by not checking it either by improperly using the gauges or because SAAMI decided in their infinite wisdom to change cartridge specifications on most non-US milsurp cartridges. SAAMI says the maximum headspace for .303 is .070. The British MOD states .074 and even that was extended to .080 during wartime for when armorers could not get the right bolt heads.

You can learn a lot more about a rifle by firing it once and checking the spent case than any headspace gauge ever will.

 

[TreyG-20]

Are these rimfire Enfields?

 

[Moonpie]

Headspace is over fretted about. More problems have been created by people checking headspace than by not checking it either by improperly using the gauges or because SAAMI decided in their infinite wisdom to change cartridge specifications on most non-US milsurp cartridges. SAAMI says the maximum headspace for .303 is .070. The British MOD states .074 and even that was extended to .080 during wartime for when armorers could not get the right bolt heads.

You can learn a lot more about a rifle by firing it once and checking the spent case than any headspace gauge ever will.

Headspace is an issue.
1.) Excessive headspace can be dangerous.
Case head separation is a bitch. Fully loaded mil-spec .303 ain't cream puff. You do NOT want it.
2.) The military never considered re-using brass so factory fresh ammo was fired once and brass discarded.
Today, shooting the .303 Brit is an expensive undertaking. Reloading is pretty much the only affordable way to shoot it much. Brass is pricey.
Long headspace greatly reduces brass life.
If you shoot new ammo and trash the brass you're good to go. If you want to reload you want a tighter chamber.
This also helps with accuracy.
3.) Enfields are noted for long chambers.

I had a couple of them rebarreled years ago.
New barrels are probably unobtainium nowadays.

OP if you do go there I have a bucket of misc parts for sale. LoL!

 

[sobi1998]

To be honest I mainly liked the looks but hearing all the issues...


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[Berthier]

Headspace is an issue.
1.) Excessive headspace can be dangerous.
Case head separation is a bitch. Fully loaded mil-spec .303 ain't cream puff. You do NOT want it.
2.) The military never considered re-using brass so factory fresh ammo was fired once and brass discarded.
Today, shooting the .303 Brit is an expensive undertaking. Reloading is pretty much the only affordable way to shoot it much. Brass is pricey.
Long headspace greatly reduces brass life.
If you shoot new ammo and trash the brass you're good to go. If you want to reload you want a tighter chamber.
This also helps with accuracy.
3.) Enfields are noted for long chambers.

I had a couple of them rebarreled years ago.
New barrels are probably unobtainium nowadays.

OP if you do go there I have a bucket of misc parts for sale. LoL!

Julian Hatcher did tests about headspace in 1947 for his book Hatcher's Notebook. He bought a M1917 that the previous owner claimed had excessive headspace because he didn't know how to use the gauge correctly. He took that rifle and kept reaming the chamber out. He never got it to blow up. Headspace is always the first thing to be blamed when a rifle "blows up," but I have yet to see an actual case where it's headspace is at fault for that. The worst you may get is case head failures. Technically the German FG-42 all would have excessive headspace because the chamber was completely straight walled and the FG-42 worked just fine that way.

.303 is hardly expensive ammo. You can find some for $18 a box and that's cheap for most milsurp calibers. .308 is about $12-$13 a box so it's hardly that much more. You can greatly extend the life of .303 brass by neck sizing only. You can also pick out thicker rimmed brass (I.E. not SAAMI spec undersized brass) to extend the life even more for rifles that you think have excessive headspace.

SMLE's chambers really aren't that bad. There are a lot worse ones out there such as the French 8mm Lebel rifles that were converted to safely use their new machine gun cartridge. One was fired in my Berthier the other in my Lebel. They're still fine to reuse if you neck size them.

 

[Moonpie]

The British Pattern-1913 aka U.S.Enfield M1917 is an entirely different rifle than the British No.1 pattern rifle.
The P-13/M1917 IS a brute strong action. Even today it is still being used for heavy caliber custom rifles.
The No.1 pattern isn't quite as strong.
The guns don't blow up because of headspace. The cartridge case splits apart and hot gas blows out the rear of the barrel chamber.
I agree, neck sizing increases brass life as well as careful annealing.
Problem is if you use the fire formed brass in a different gun. No two chambers are identical and you are often required to full length resize to fit the smaller chamber. If you have a herd of No.1's to feed this means overworked brass.

OP, buy whichever rifle you prefer.
Buy some ammo and be happy.
Post pics and ignore us gun dorks. LoL.

 

[ROGER4314]

Don't be fooled, the Enfield rifles are terrific shooters! You can use the poor boy method of checking headspace by putting some tape on the back of the cartridge and trying to close the bolt. That cartridge headspaces on the rim so it's easy to tell if the rifle is loose. If you have a stack of tape on the cartridge head and the bolt still closes, it's pretty loose!

The cartridge compares favorably with the 30-06 and recoil is stout! Brass is available and so are bullets, so it's an easy cartridge to load. The Enfields share the same bullet as the 7.7 Japanese round. Some folks saw the .303 ammo drying up and snagged a boat load of it........snicker.

The ladder rear sights are preferable to the minimalist two aperture flip up sights.

The 2A Ishapore rifles are chambered for 7.62 Nato (.308). To convert the Enfields, they completely re-engineered the rifles with new receivers. That rifle was not simply rebarreled. The barrel is free floated on an interesting spring loaded disk at the muzzle end.

Those rifles are genuine pieces of history. The British Empire was defended by that rifle!

Flash

 

[Vaquero]

I might be selling an Ishapore Enfield in the near future if you ever get up to DFW

I'd like to witness this exchange.

 

[Jakashh]

I might be selling an Ishapore Enfield in the near future if you ever get up to DFW

I'd like to witness this exchange.

Depending on price of the gun (no idea how much they go for yet) and the issuance of my tax refund, I may be interested in setting up an exchange for you to witness.


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[MTA]

Depending on price of the gun (no idea how much they go for yet) and the issuance of my tax refund, I may be interested in setting up an exchange for you to witness.


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Feel free to send me a PM. I still have it and it is still up for sale. Not sure the next time I will be in Houston though but I am open to shipping