Oh... CRAP!! Sold Pistol Used In a Crime

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  • TreyG-20

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    Dec 16, 2011
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    Central
    Applies to handguns only.


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    "The reporting requirements mandate that all federally licensed firearms dealers and pawnbrokers in Arizona, California, New Mexico, and Texas submit to ATF reports of multiple sales or other dispositions of certain rifles to unlicensed individuals when two or more particular kinds of rifles are transferred at the same time, or within five consecutive business days of each other. The types of rifles that must be reported are those with the following characteristics: (1) semiautomatic; (2) a caliber greater than .22 (including .223/5.56 mm); and (3) the ability to accept detachable magazines."
    Guns International
     

    TreyG-20

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    Dec 16, 2011
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    Central
    "The reporting requirements mandate that all federally licensed firearms dealers and pawnbrokers in Arizona, California, New Mexico, and Texas submit to ATF reports of multiple sales or other dispositions of certain rifles to unlicensed individuals when two or more particular kinds of rifles are transferred at the same time, or within five consecutive business days of each other. The types of rifles that must be reported are those with the following characteristics: (1) semiautomatic; (2) a caliber greater than .22 (including .223/5.56 mm); and (3) the ability to accept detachable magazines."
    By license I assume this mean a CHL? Which means this would not apply if you have one?
     

    TxStetson

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    The Big Country
    Applies to handguns only.


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    Actually, as posted above, it also applies to rifles in the 4 states that border Mexico.

    On a personal note, I filled out lots of them while working at my buddy’s gun store.
     

    DwnRange

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    Jan 5, 2015
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    There is no gun registration in Texas. If you buy from an FFL they keep the 4473 for at least 20 years but the ATF does not have that info. If you happen to buy two within 5 days a multiple handgun sales form with lots of personal info goes to the ATF and then the ATF has all your info and the gun info. As long as you buy one at a time the ATF normally does not have the info (there are some ways but for the most part they don’t).
    Traces start with the manufacturer then the distributor then the dealer then the initial buyer. There could be other paper trails if a dealer buys it down the line.

    This is good/correct information IMHO - only things missing I see are "if" a dealer goes out of business or has his FFL revoked for some reason (generally asinine) the "F" troop gets all his 4473 transaction records - and if by chance one of your weapons shows up in a crime they are allowed a copy of the 4473 from the FFL dealer where you purchased the firearm, (but only rarely are they allowed to copy all dealer 4473s willy nilly without snatching his FFL first, which they have been known to do).

    As to the multiple HG purchases - as stated by Mrvmax, a reputable FFL "always" informs his customers of the 3310.4 form.

    (one of the best reasons to deal with large gun shops like Carter's Country and to KEEP INFORMED of the rules instituted by liberal government administrations)

    added -
    "The reporting requirements mandate that all federally licensed firearms dealers and pawnbrokers in Arizona, California, New Mexico, and Texas submit to ATF reports of multiple sales or other dispositions of certain rifles to unlicensed individuals when two or more particular kinds of rifles are transferred at the same time, or within five consecutive business days of each other. The types of rifles that must be reported are those with the following characteristics: (1) semiautomatic; (2) a caliber greater than .22 (including .223/5.56 mm); and (3) the ability to accept detachable magazines."

    .....as to this Obamanation - if the "government" can let these types firearms walk and ignore the LAW, on purpose, as they did in "operation fast and furious" then F'em - this ain't no law......(nobody went to jail over this did they?), but ya can bet the farm, it'll get an FFL dealer's license yanked in a heartbeat.
     
    Last edited:

    Texasgordo

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    May 15, 2008
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    Gonzales, Texas
    My bad on the handguns only


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    A & P

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    Aug 4, 2014
    367
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    Tomball/Magnolia
    Seems pretty well resolved, but just to clarify if there are any inconsistencies:

    A dealer has to fill out a multi-gun sale form for two or more handguns in a 5 day rolling window. If you buy one today and one in 4 days, multi-gun sale. If you buy another one in 3 days, another multi-gun sale (and you reference that it was part of another multi-sale...). The customer doesn't do anything. It's for the dealer to do. We have to fax it by the end of the business day to sheriff and ATF.

    A dealer has to fill out a multi-gun sale for "certain types of rifles" (basically AR/AK types...not hunting rifles or bolt action. just the evil ones). Same concept. 5 days. But we only have to tell ATF. No LE notification. I didn't know until reading here that it was just for bordering states. This is our only store so I didn't know it wasn't nationwide. So Obama loses a bunch of guns and now I have extra paperwork for it. Nice. Ass.

    Our store offers, and the ATF recommends, doing a "private-party sale 4473". So we do the background check for you just as if we sold the gun. That removes liability from you to the same level that we get in the sense that what else could you do? We did NICS or otherwise documented the sale. We charge $25 just like a transfer. If you're wound up about not having your name on documents, this isn't for you. But the new 4473 even has a place to mark "facilitate private party transfer". Basically it means the item wasn't ever in our inventory but we were helping with background checking. The alternative solution is to not sell to anyone without a CHL/LTC because they skip the NICS check anyway. You're using the same prudence a dealer would.

    We have to keep 4473s for 20 years. If we go out of business, as someone said, F Troop gets our records. Cancelled or denied 4473 is 5 years. That's why dealers should charge you for filling out 4473s and then maybe apply it to the purchase. It takes time and we have to keep paperwork even on a denial. Time is money.

    We've had 3 traces so far. They find a gun, call the manf, then the distro the manf sold to, then the dealer the distro sold to... We had one guy buy a gun for his son and a few weeks later it showed up at a burglary. Another guy killed himself with a gun we sold. And another one was found somewhere and not sure of the story behind it. So the guns are kind of registered in the sense that I have to know who I sold them to. But it's not registration in the sense that you have to put your social security, keep your address current, update it when you sell it, etc. And we keep it all on paper so it's not in a federal registry (except NFA items). Call it quasi-registration.

    I also learned that pawn shops have a hard time doing transfers. I think a pawn owner told me they have to keep used/transferred/sold guns for 3 weeks before releasing them because they have to give 5-0 a chance to find stolen goods. Regular FFLs (01 dealer/07 manufacturer) don't have that restriction. Pawnshops are actually type 02 FFLs.

    Finally, dumbest rule in ATF land: if you consign a gun with us, you have to do a 4473 to get your own gun back. But if you drop it off for repair, you can pick it up without doing any paperwork and even have someone else pick it up for you (but the someone else does have to do a 4473 and skip 11a)! Where's the logic in that!?
     

    Kar98

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    Aug 8, 2016
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    DFW
    Finally, dumbest rule in ATF land: if you consign a gun with us, you have to do a 4473 to get your own gun back. But if you drop it off for repair, you can pick it up without doing any paperwork and even have someone else pick it up for you (but the someone else does have to do a 4473 and skip 11a)! Where's the logic in that!?

    Obviously I'm neither a dealer nor a gunsmith, so the following is just from my side of the counter, the customer side:
    One gun I left with a gunsmith for some repair and got back after several days, I didn't have to fill out anything to get it back other than signing the sales receipt.
    And the range told me as long as it doesn't stay overnight, no 4473, because only if it stays overnight they have to sign it in and back out.
     

    SloppyShooter

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    Apr 24, 2018
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    White Settlement, Texas
    Yeah ...but tha
    Obviously I'm neither a dealer nor a gunsmith, so the following is just from my side of the counter, the customer side:
    One gun I left with a gunsmith for some repair and got back after several days, I didn't have to fill out anything to get it back other than signing the sales receipt.
    And the range told me as long as it doesn't stay overnight, no 4473, because only if it stays overnight they have to sign it in and back out.

    Yeah, but that's your gun...why in the WIDE WORLD OF SPORTS would you have to? Crap, I don't have to do a title change to get a brake job done.
     

    Kar98

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    Yeah ...but tha


    Yeah, but that's your gun...why in the WIDE WORLD OF SPORTS would you have to? Crap, I don't have to do a title change to get a brake job done.

    Right? Like signing over your car title to Firestone when getting your brakes done, LOL.
     

    hoghunting

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    Sep 24, 2014
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    Seems pretty well resolved, but just to clarify if there are any inconsistencies:

    I also learned that pawn shops have a hard time doing transfers. I think a pawn owner told me they have to keep used/transferred/sold guns for 3 weeks before releasing them because they have to give 5-0 a chance to find stolen goods. Regular FFLs (01 dealer/07 manufacturer) don't have that restriction. Pawnshops are actually type 02 FFLs.

    That might depend on city or county laws as I used a pawn shop for transfers many times as they charged less than gun stores, and the firearm was transferred to me the same day the shop received it.
     
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