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Is it just me or, is .40 cal the top dog versus 9 or 45

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  • phoenix

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    Seems many Law enforcement agencies are going to 9mm instead of .40. I know some still are at 40cal but. Personally there is not much difference between the 9 and 40 but alot between the 9 and 45 acp. My thought have 9 and 45
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    Younggun

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    I can say that on steel .40 hits noticeably harder. But it still wasn’t worth keeping in the lineup.

    Not like the energy difference will matter with a handgun anyways.


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    Old_Inspector

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    What about the .357 SIG?
    I have several of them, all SIGs. They are easier to shoot than my .40 S&Ws and, apparently hit as hard. Texas DPS still use them (I think) although they toyed with converting to 9mm a couple of years back. What DPS liked the best were their S&W 686 revolvers which are the best equivalent to their .357 SIGs.
     

    Old_Inspector

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    Seems many Law enforcement agencies are going to 9mm instead of .40. I know some still are at 40cal but. Personally there is not much difference between the 9 and 40 but alot between the 9 and 45 acp. My thought have 9 and 45
    I've heard that a number of police departments switched from .40 S&W to 9mm because the "smaller" recruits (women) could not handle the .40 S&W recoil, which can be quite stout. Sounds like a training issue to me.
     

    lightflyer1

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    I have dialed back to just .22, 9mm, .45acp, 5.56, 7.62 and 12 gauge. Throw in a 45 Colt and a 357 magnum revolver just for fun.
     

    Younggun

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    I have several of them, all SIGs. They are easier to shoot than my .40 S&Ws and, apparently hit as hard. Texas DPS still use them (I think) although they toyed with converting to 9mm a couple of years back. What DPS liked the best were their S&W 686 revolvers which are the best equivalent to their .357 SIGs.

    I don’t know who in DPS told you this, but I have family at DPS and haven’t heard any of them mention wanting to go back to revolvers in any form or caliber.

    They have also completely transitioned back to 9mm as far as I’m aware. Ammo is cheaper and qualification acor s improves across the. Oats for both men and women. I believe still using a Sig, but never bothered to ask after they ran in to issues with the S&Ws.


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    Old_Inspector

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    I am wondering what type of loading the FBI used then for 10mm. Thanks for sharing
    The FBI actually wanted and used a 1076 S&W in 10 mm full-power loading for awhile but switched because the women agents, in particular, could not handle the recoil. The FBI switched to a reduced power 180-grain load that morphed into the 180-grain .40 S&W round load. The FBI wanted a new "super gun" load because they got into a gunfight in Miami in 1986 with two very bad bank robbers, one of whom was armed with a Ruger Mini-14 and very good with it (could hit tin cans at 25 yards consistently while firing from the hip). This guy was hit with a 9mm round fired from a S&W 59 and received a "non-survivable" wound from one of the FBI agents. The Mini-14 shooter then killed both that agent and one other (who had lost his glasses and could see what was going on). That fiasco was more about poor tactics, lack of preparation (the FBI in those days was relying on saying "We're the FBI" and the bad guys just giving up) and the worst felony stop in history. The bad guys said "So what" and shot seven of the FBI agents to ribbons. Nothing makes up for putting rounds on target (remember, only hits count), certainly not a "super gun" or "super round".
     

    Old_Inspector

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    I don’t know who in DPS told you this, but I have family at DPS and haven’t heard any of them mention wanting to go back to revolvers in any form or caliber.

    They have also completely transitioned back to 9mm as far as I’m aware. Ammo is cheaper and qualification acor s improves across the. Oats for both men and women. I believe still using a Sig, but never bothered to ask after they ran in to issues with the S&Ws.


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    I never said that the DPS wanted to go back to revolvers, just that they wanted the power of the .357 back and .357 SIG was as close as they could find.
     

    Dawico

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    Less capacity than a 9mm and smaller caliber than a 45.

    Yep, that's the 40 S&W.

    Cover any bases not covered by something else? Nope.

    Essentially the overlooked middle child.

    I will probably always own a few 40s. No real reason to get more but no reason to get rid of them either.
     

    Old_Inspector

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    Sorry, I guess I misunderstood.


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    No, my apologies. I did not make my point clearly. No police agency of which I've heard wants to go back to revolvers. Practice - a lot of it - makes hits on target; rounds in the air does not necessarily translate into hits. In combat, no hits = you die. I just don't trust the 9mm as much as others calibers like .45 ACP, .357 SIG & .40 S&W; you must be confident that you can hit your target with your firearm and I am not as confident with 9x19 mm. My prejudice.
     

    ZX9RCAM

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    . I did not make my point you die. I just don't trust the 9mm as much as others calibers like .45 ACP, .357 SIG & .40 S&W; you must be confident that you can hit your target with your firearm and I am not as confident with 9x19 mm. My prejudice.

    Are you saying that you are not as good a shot with a 9mm as you are a .40?
     

    majormadmax

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    I've heard that a number of police departments switched from .40 S&W to 9mm because the "smaller" recruits (women) could not handle the .40 S&W recoil, which can be quite stout. Sounds like a training issue to me.

    Fake news, it's that 9mm is simply more economical given its popularity.

    Most female officers I've met outshoot the majority of their male counterparts!

    However, the FBi did discontinue use of the 10mm Auto within a couple of years because the round’s recoil was determined to be excessively strong, and the preponderance of their agents disliked it. The .40 S&W was the compromise...
     

    majormadmax

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    The FBI actually wanted and used a 1076 S&W in 10 mm full-power loading for awhile but switched because the women agents, in particular, could not handle the recoil. The FBI switched to a reduced power 180-grain load that morphed into the 180-grain .40 S&W round load. The FBI wanted a new "super gun" load because they got into a gunfight in Miami in 1986 with two very bad bank robbers, one of whom was armed with a Ruger Mini-14 and very good with it (could hit tin cans at 25 yards consistently while firing from the hip). This guy was hit with a 9mm round fired from a S&W 59 and received a "non-survivable" wound from one of the FBI agents. The Mini-14 shooter then killed both that agent and one other (who had lost his glasses and could see what was going on). That fiasco was more about poor tactics, lack of preparation (the FBI in those days was relying on saying "We're the FBI" and the bad guys just giving up) and the worst felony stop in history. The bad guys said "So what" and shot seven of the FBI agents to ribbons. Nothing makes up for putting rounds on target (remember, only hits count), certainly not a "super gun" or "super round".

    It wasn't just female Special Agents, it was the majority of agents that disliked it.

    Also, Jeff Cooper largely developed the 10mm round in the very early 1980s and had been working with the FBI and the US military on adopting it long before the infamous 1986 Miami shootout. Remember that in the late 70s the US military was looking for a replacement for the M1911. The FBI had also been sending their Special Agents to Cooper’s shooting school for years, as did U.S. Special Operations Forces. Cooper leveraged his longstanding trusted relationship with the FBI to market the 10mm, which it adopted for a few years before "settling" for the .40; but only after trying numerous loads in the 10mm in an attempt to tame its recoil (a.k.a. the “10mm Lite” or “10mm FBI” load) which resulted in pistol feed and ejection problems.

    S&W design engineers understood the issues surrounding the full-up 10mm Auto and the reduced recoil 10mm FBI load. Their business solution was to create a new cartridge unique to Smith and Wesson that would provide identical performance of the 10mm FBI load, but for marketing be unique to Smith and Wesson. They needed something they could own. This was a business decision based upon a very smart market analysis, not an FBI-driven requirement.

    The 10mm Auto is still around. The FBI’s Hostage Rescue Team still has it in their armory, as do some U.S. military special ops units.
     

    Darkpriest667

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    If anyone has a 10mm Glock or 1911 they'd like to take to the meetup we can see how i feel about the recoil. I'm one of the smaller members and can probably speak to whether or not I would feel comfortable shooting it in a defense situation.
     

    TheMailMan

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    If anyone has a 10mm Glock or 1911 they'd like to take to the meetup we can see how i feel about the recoil. I'm one of the smaller members and can probably speak to whether or not I would feel comfortable shooting it in a defense situation.

    If ya want to come out to Terrell I'll let ya shoot one of my 1911 pistols in 10mm.
     

    tbark44

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    I dont do 9mm or 40 cal anylonger , 45 acp an 45 gap ,had a 40 for awhile but i was un impressed with the accuracy till i found out a 140 to 150 gr bullet shoots way better then the standard 185. i seemed to find every where for sale , but the 230 gr 45 still shoots way more accurate in the guns i was shooting in the test i did for myself a tennis ball sized group at 25 yds is much way better than a pie pan sized group with the 40 at 15 yds ,t
     
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