9mm Carbine Rifle thoughts...

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  • diesel1959

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    OP is asking for a 9mm Carbine Rifle

    Really a carbine is a carbine shorter than a rifle
    I'm really unaware of a true 9mm Rifle

    I've had a Camp 9 and sold it when I got hard up for money 25 years ago
    Makes me sick to this day

    8 years ago I bought a Keltec Sub 2000
    Shot great but just jarred my face alot and never got comfortable with it

    Ended up with a Beretta Storm
    Great gun and matches my M9

    Takes same magazine
    To me, a "carbine" is a rifle (even a longer SBR) with a barrel between 14.5" and 16" or so. If it's a pistol (with less than a 14.5" barrel), it's not a carbine. Not dissin' on pistol-caliber pistols, but it can't be a pistol caliber carbine unless it's a carbine. Just my dos centavos.

    EDIT: Traditionally, rifles had longer--MUCH longer than 16"--barrels and were quite unwieldy to use in many settings. So, if you think about an old-school rifle with a barrel of 22" to 24", then the term "carbine" being used for versions that were a good bit shorter than that, things start to make more sense. Carbines are rifles, but rifles with shorter (I specify 14.5" to 16", because the M4 is considered a carbine, and it has a 14.5" barrel).
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    CyberWolf

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    To me, a "carbine" is a rifle (even a longer SBR) with a barrel between 14.5" and 16" or so. If it's a pistol (with less than a 14.5" barrel), it's not a carbine. Not dissin' on pistol-caliber pistols, but it can't be a pistol caliber carbine unless it's a carbine. Just my dos centavos.

    EDIT: Traditionally, rifles had longer--MUCH longer than 16"--barrels and were quite unwieldy to use in many settings. So, if you think about an old-school rifle with a barrel of 22" to 24", then the term "carbine" being used for versions that were a good bit shorter than that, things start to make more sense. Carbines are rifles, but rifles with shorter (I specify 14.5" to 16", because the M4 is considered a carbine, and it has a 14.5" barrel).
    Keep in mind that the terms 'Carbine', 'Rifle', 'Pistol', etc. can have multiple definitions depending on context...

    For example, In the case of Direct Gas Impingement firearms (e.g. AR10/15, M4, etc.), the terms are most commonly used as an indicator of Gas System Lenth. You could have a 24" bbl 'Pistol' (gas) (just presented as example; likely no reason for this to exist), or a 16" bbl "Rifle" with Rifle-length gas (uncommon; higher chance of functional/reliability issues due to insufficient dwell time), and 'Pistols' having additional legal context based on reciever markings/transfer method and/or design/features (or a DI system with gas port at 4").

    The M4 'Carbine' is called that due to having a Carbine-length gas system which places the gas port at 7" down the bbl, with another 7.5" of effective dwell time for the gas impulse.

    Other weapon platforms use the term differently (e.g. M1 Carbine, Ruger PCC, Bolt Rifles, etc.).

    Given that most PCCs/9mm AR's are going to he direct/delayed blowback (with some exceptions; MPX for example is short-stroke piston and is a beast w/ either 3.5" or 4.5" bbl), I'm not sure if the terms Carbine vs Rifle can really be used 'definitively' in this case, beyond just general reference (or marketing) terms based on weapon size & barrel profile...
     
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    Younggun

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    PCC or no?

    0bfd5e4bb83e4f0776aed699dd2728f1.jpg


    Can’t be an SMG because the fun parts in the bang switch don’t brrrrrrrt.


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    Younggun

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    I would say Yeah its a carbine because it can be shoulder fired. Just my own definition.
    F/A not really a requirement.

    That is where I go with it. But above there was mention of pistols based on barrel length grouped in with the rifle/carbine discussion.

    I only pointed out non F/A to avoid any incorrect SMG classification or giving anyone the impression I was cool like Grumper.

    IMO, I tend to look at anything 16-18” barrel or less and shoulder fired as a carbine.

    Of course it can be further confused by AR stocks being sold with fixed stocks designated as “rifle” and collapsible stocks as “carbine”. Not sure where that started though.

    Really never worried about it before this thread. Not a big deal to me, especially while we have people running around saying “clip” when they really mean magazine.


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    Younggun

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    Pretty sure all carbines are rifles, but not all rifles are carbines. Unless you have a smooth bore carbine of course.


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    Pops1955

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    I have several pistol/revolver carbine pairs.

    WHAT I GOT:

    Glock 23 paired with a Kel-Tex sub-2000 .40 -- my favorite since i carry the 23 daily now and keep the sub folded in the B.O.B. in the truck.

    Have a Marlin 1894 in .357 paired with a Colt Peace Maker SA .357 -- my western nod.

    Have a Ruger P95 paired with an older (2006) PC 9 Carbine -- A LOT of FUN and just keeps on running. Both are built like tanks and shoot very well.

    Have a PX 4 Storm in .45 paired with a Cx 4 Storm. -- also a lot of fun BUT my least favorite.

    WHAT I WANT TO GET:

    New Ruger PC 9 paired with a Ruger American -- the breakdown feature make this on attractive for my B.O.B.

    I want a Marlin Camp .45 to Pair with my 1911.

    and I want to buy a Magnum Research BFR 45-70 to pair with my Marlin Stainless 45-70 Trapper

    WHAT I DO NOT WANT:

    Just me, i do not see the point in an AR frame in any pistol caliber
     

    diesel1959

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    PCC or no?

    View attachment 151626

    Can’t be an SMG because the fun parts in the bang switch don’t brrrrrrrt.


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    It's a semi-auto version of a subgun, but it's not a carbine. The UZI carbine has a 16" barrel. By the same token, semi-auto HK clones of the MP5 and MP5K are not carbines. They're semi-auto versions of a subgun. Whether you use a stabilizing brace, or go the route of Form 1 and make an SBR, it's not a carbine. At least not in my book.
     

    HKShooter65

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    Here
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbine
    So many gray areas. Could argue this without ever a firm consensus.

    I'll suggest a fave of mine:
    Factory 9mm Tavor.
    Tough to find though.

    Easier to find:
    Carbinesque pistol...SIG MPX short barrel with a forearm brace.
    You pointed out pricey magazines but the thick steel feed lips have a last-forever aura.
     
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    Younggun

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    Here
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbine
    So many gray areas. Could argue this without ever a firm consensus.

    I'll suggest a fave of mine:
    Factory 9mm Tavor.
    Tough to find though.

    Easier to find:
    Carbinesque pistol...SIG MPX short barrel with a forearm brace.
    You pointed out pricey magazines but the thick steel feed lips have a last-forever aura.

    Dictionary definition would probably be much better, although no more clear, than a wiki article.


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    grumper

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    It's a semi-auto version of a subgun, but it's not a carbine. The UZI carbine has a 16" barrel. By the same token, semi-auto HK clones of the MP5 and MP5K are not carbines. They're semi-auto versions of a subgun. Whether you use a stabilizing brace, or go the route of Form 1 and make an SBR, it's not a carbine. At least not in my book.

    The old school HK94s had 16" barrels too. And those USC abortions were 16" as well. Those are carbines? Does a HK94 carbine cease being a carbine if you lop 6 inches of barrel off? Then it's just a HK94? Are carbine and SBR mutually exclusive then? But true M4 length barrels make them SBRs AND carbines at the same time. So confusing.
     
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    diesel1959

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    The old school HK94s had 16" barrels too. And those USC abortions were 16" as well. Those are carbines? Does a HK94 carbine cease being a carbine if you lop 6 inches of barrel off? Then it's just a HK94? Are carbine and SBR mutually exclusive then? But true M4 length barrels make them SBRs AND carbines at the same time. So confusing.
    Yes, exactly. The USC and HK94 are carbines in exactly the same way as the UZI carbine with the 16" barrel is a carbine. Aside from the legalities, if you lop off 6" of an HK94, you have an MP5 clone--a semi-auto version of a subgun, but you no longer have a carbine. If you lop off 6" of the UZI carbine's barrel, you wind up with what you pictured in an earlier post . . . and no longer a carbine.

    This is why I say that carbines have 14.5" to 16" (ish) barrels. A big part of the lure of having a PCC is having the extra barrel length (as compared to the subgun version or the actual pistol versions) so that you maximize muzzle velocity and energy. In addition, you usually see a longer sight radius with a carbine than you do with a pistol. That's one of the weird points of the USC, the HK94, and UZI carbine--they all have the barrel to make them carbines, but they have the sight radius of the subgun. That's less-than-optimal.
     
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    Dawico

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    What kind/brand/model?
    Freedom Ordinance FX9. Lower end for sure but a nice firearm nonetheless. Run about $650ish new. I got a steal on it used.

    Shortly after picking it up I stopped at a gun store to browse. They had two different 9mm ARs for about $1200 each.

    Better guns? Probably, but a little spendy for a plinker.
     

    DD130

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    Freedom Ordinance FX9. Lower end for sure but a nice firearm nonetheless. Run about $650ish new. I got a steal on it used.
    Thx for the info. I almost picked one up at the gun show, for about retail. Seen some good reviews on it, and uses Glock mags which are easy to come by.
     

    ScS

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    Dictionary definition would probably be much better, although no more clear, than a wiki article.

    Some confusion is generated when using both civilian and military definitions. A good example is "machine gun". The ATF short version is "anything that will fire more than one round per trigger action" but the military definition is "full auto only" If it is capable of semiautomatic fire, it is not a machine gun.

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    diesel1959

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    Freedom Ordinance FX9. Lower end for sure but a nice firearm nonetheless. Run about $650ish new. I got a steal on it used.

    Shortly after picking it up I stopped at a gun store to browse. They had two different 9mm ARs for about $1200 each.

    Better guns? Probably, but a little spendy for a plinker.
    The FX-9 and FX-9 pistol are both excellent. Billet upper and lower, and the mag release is better than that found on an AR, if you ask me. I don't particularly like the smaller charging handle, but it works. I've certainly enjoyed both of mine and wouldn't look for buying a standard AR in 9mm.
     
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