"engaged in providing emergency services"

[jordanmills]

Last session's HB 435 added exceptions/defenses for volunteer emergency services personnel for TPC 46.02, 46.03, and 46.035, but with the condition that the individual is "engaged in providing emergency services."

Is anyone aware of effective law or precedent related to "engaged" and such in this context?

It's obvious that one situation intentionally covered would be a qualified volunteer EMT entering an office used by a court to render medical aid to a person in distress. What about a case where someone is on "standby duty"? Say, a volunteer firefighter carrying a pager/radio and ready to answer a call, but not fighting a fire right at that moment? If you draw a line between the two of those, what about an EMT who responds to a call and enters a place that would be prohibited by TPC 46.03, but finds another crew who was able to make the scene first, so he waits to see if he can assist in some capacity later?

 

[Kar98]

"Engaged in the business of X" means in general, not just in the few moments it takes to exchange a service or product for money. You're engaged in the business of painting houses even if it's 2:30 in the morning and you're sound asleep!

See https://www.atf.gov/file/55456/download (PDF), 18 U.S.C. § 923(a).

 

[jordanmills]

"Engaged in the business of X" means in general, not just in the few moments it takes to exchange a service or product for money. You're engaged in the business of painting houses even if it's 2:30 in the morning and you're sound asleep!

See https://www.atf.gov/file/55456/download (PDF), 18 U.S.C. § 923(a).

I like this angle. It's also directly relevant to the subject matter (guns). One might make a case that the definitions are different between state and federal. Also, the additions to TPC do not include "in the business of", which might affect a ruling.

 

[diesel1959]

These are the reasons folks pose questions to the Attorney General's Office for an opinion. It's a useful tool to bring some predictability to portions of new law or when there are disputes regarding existing law.

 

[toddnjoyce]

Is anyone aware of effective law or precedent related to "engaged" and such in this context?

I do not.

In reading the text of TPC 46, other usages of the phrase ‘engaged in....’ imply being in the act of doing whatever or being in the course of duty.

I would think that because the exception is labeled as a defense to prosecution, it means the state will have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that one was not engaged in providing emergency services.

So, the standby/pager alert guy isn’t given free reign to carry in prohibited places, just because DTP is there.

Scenario: standby guy with pager is at the horse races with family/friends, placing bets, etc. would he be able to overcome the state’s position that he was NOT engaged in providing emergency services?

I’d say it depends on the judge.






Keep Calm and RTFU

 

[jordanmills]

These are the reasons folks pose questions to the Attorney General's Office for an opinion. It's a useful tool to bring some predictability to portions of new law or when there are disputes regarding existing law.

Yeah, but folks can't do that unless they happen to be one of a few certain officials. I guess we (I) could ask a DA or a state rep who can do it on behalf of a legislative committee to request the opinion.

 

[jordanmills]

Oh, for added fun, there was a defense to prosecution added for 30.06/30.07 for volunteer emergency services personnel - but without any other conditions like the "engaged in providing". So if you're a volunteer firefighter, 30.06 and 30.07 never apply to you, at least from the look of it.

 

[toddnjoyce]

Oh, for added fun, there was a defense to prosecution added for 30.06/30.07 for volunteer emergency services personnel - but without any other conditions like the "engaged in providing". So if you're a volunteer firefighter, 30.06 and 30.07 never apply to you, at least from the look of it.

I don’t think that’s what DTP means, so let me know that works out for you.


Keep Calm and RTFU

 

[jordanmills]

I don’t think that’s what DTP means, so let me know that works out for you.


Keep Calm and RTFU

I think your keyboard is broken. It keeps putting some lame garbage at the end of each of your posts.

 

[diesel1959]

Yeah, but folks can't do that unless they happen to be one of a few certain officials. I guess we (I) could ask a DA or a state rep who can do it on behalf of a legislative committee to request the opinion.

If you're an "emergency service" type person, you either have a union, a department, or other folks who talk to the folks who ARE authorized to request a DA's opinion. Git 'er done.

 

[Renegade]

"Engaged in the business of X" means in general,

Except is does not say "engaged in the business of providing emergency services", it says "engaged in providing emergency services."


I would interpret this as narrow as it sounds, I can enter a 30.06 to render aid to someone immediately in need.

 

[toddnjoyce]

I think your keyboard is broken. It keeps putting some lame garbage at the end of each of your posts.

You thought wrong.


Keep Calm and RTFU

 

[Vaquero]

Sounds like thin ice to me.

 

[Bithabus]

There are other "engaged in" 46.02 exceptions. Engaged in hunting or fishing, for example. I think most people know when they are engaged in hunting or fishing. If you're not sure whether you are "engaged in" said activity, you most likely are not.

 

[jordanmills]

If you're an "emergency service" type person, you either have a union, a department, or other folks who talk to the folks who ARE authorized to request a DA's opinion. Git 'er done.

Not for volunteers.

 

[jordanmills]

Except is does not say "engaged in the business of providing emergency services", it says "engaged in providing emergency services."


I would interpret this as narrow as it sounds, I can enter a 30.06 to render aid to someone immediately in need.

The "engaged" isn't a condition for the exception to 30.06 and 30.07, only 46.02 and 46.03.

 

[jordanmills]

Sounds like thin ice to me.

That's why I'm discussing and not testing.