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DAO vs SAO in semi autos. Which do you prefer and why?

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  • DAO vs SAO in semi autos. Which do you prefer and why?

    • DAO

      Votes: 4 16.0%
    • SAO

      Votes: 21 84.0%

    • Total voters
      25

    toddnjoyce

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    ...I like the lighter pull on the SA, yet still have 2 strike ability. If I had to absolutely choose between SAO or DAO, it would be DAO, just for the fact you can pull the trigger again if first one don't go bang.

    That second strike doesn’t guarantee anything.

    Failure drills may not be quicker than a second strike ignition, but they’re a damn sight quicker than second strike failure, then doing the drill.

    Which brings me to my second point...I’ve never had a failure to fire. I’ve experienced failure to eject, failure to feed, but never failure to fire.

    That’s across dozens of revolvers, DA semis, SA semis, DA/SA semis, and striker fired handguns and more than 50K rounds in 25+ years.

    I’m sure it happens, I’ve just never experienced it.
    DK Firearms
     

    zackmars

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    That second strike doesn’t guarantee anything.

    Failure drills may not be quicker than a second strike ignition, but they’re a damn sight quicker than second strike failure, then doing the drill.

    Which brings me to my second point...I’ve never had a failure to fire. I’ve experienced failure to eject, failure to feed, but never failure to fire.

    That’s across dozens of revolvers, DA semis, SA semis, DA/SA semis, and striker fired handguns and more than 50K rounds in 25+ years.

    I’m sure it happens, I’ve just never experienced it.

    This is a good point. We have a dud bucket at our range, and i love to pull out the 9mm's and shoot them. Its an outdoor range, so many of the rounds have been stewing in the bucket for quite awhile.

    I've never had a second hit fire a round after the first hit failed to shoot.

    The only failires to fire with new ammo i had were with a S&W M&P that I had been putting aftermarket parts in.

    If your gun goes *click*, you get it out of the chamber
     

    Mowingmaniac 24/7

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    I have had a failure to fire with some 9 mm Monarch ammo.

    It was the only stuff that had primers so hard my G19 would fail to fire about ever 2nd or 3rd round.

    I still have a couple of boxes of it, I keep trying (and failing) to try what I have left in some of my other pistols, but I think I have such a negative attitude about it, I guess I don't want to mess with it....

    Oh, I had zero problems with brass Monarch ammo. If I recall, these cartridges were green in color.
     

    zackmars

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    I have had a failure to fire with some 9 mm Monarch ammo.

    It was the only stuff that had primers so hard my G19 would fail to fire about ever 2nd or 3rd round.

    I still have a couple of boxes of it, I keep trying (and failing) to try what I have left in some of my other pistols, but I think I have such a negative attitude about it, I guess I don't want to mess with it....

    Oh, I had zero problems with brass Monarch ammo. If I recall, these cartridges were green in color.

    Round count on the gun? If near or over 5k it may be a weak striker spring
     

    Mowingmaniac 24/7

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    zackmars,

    Hhhmmm, thanks and yes it has well over 5k rounds through it.

    I'll replace the striker spring.

    This was about 3 years ago and I've since put a bunch of rounds through it, but springs are inexpensive...
     

    zackmars

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    zackmars,

    Hhhmmm, thanks and yes it has well over 5k rounds through it.

    I'll replace the striker spring.

    This was about 3 years ago and I've since put a bunch of rounds through it, but springs are inexpensive...

    Glocks are pretty simple, and springs are as you said, cheap. Glock "officially" seems to change the spring lifespan at random, but generally after every 5k you'll want to replace the striker spring, recoil spring, and ejector spring
     

    diesel1959

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    My preference is for HK's LEM, then striker-fired, then DAO; however, I shoot DA/SA pistols well too.

    Currently, my concealed carry pistol is a Smith 3914DAO (often referred to as an NYPD off-duty pistol). The trigger pull on this pistol is lighter than the double-action pull on my Smith 3913. I'm not certain why; however, there IS a difference and I get a safe, reasonable, and consistent trigger pull shot to shot to shot.
     

    Maverick44

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    If I had to choose only one of those two options, it would be SAO. I enjoy a good trigger, and it certainly aids in getting better accuracy. I don't feel that either has any kind of true (not theoretical) "tactical" advantage for self defense. Any differences can easily be overcome by even a moderate level of training.

    I feel that DA/SA is the best system out there, at least for me. You get the advantages of DA and SA, so it's the best of both worlds. Never been a huge fan of striker fire. I kind of just lump them in with DAO. I own one and I like it, but it's not my preferred system.
     

    Maverick44

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    That second strike doesn’t guarantee anything.

    Failure drills may not be quicker than a second strike ignition, but they’re a damn sight quicker than second strike failure, then doing the drill.

    Which brings me to my second point...I’ve never had a failure to fire. I’ve experienced failure to eject, failure to feed, but never failure to fire.

    That’s across dozens of revolvers, DA semis, SA semis, DA/SA semis, and striker fired handguns and more than 50K rounds in 25+ years.

    I’m sure it happens, I’ve just never experienced it.

    It doesn't, BUT I have personally had to use a double strike to get a round to fire. Not under self defense circumstances, but I guess it still counts. Long story short, I got a hold of some not so reliable primers and didn't realize this until I had loaded up a couple hundred rounds of 9mm. Both of my 9mms are DA/SA, so when I got the occasional failure to fire, I just pulled the trigger again and 9 time out of 10, the round would fire.

    Obviously you don't want to use "junk" ammo like that for self defense, but you are not 100% guaranteed that a round will fire when you pull the trigger, even with premium ammo. There is always that tiny chance that you get that 1 round out of 10,000 that is a dud. I wouldn't buy a DA/SA just for that reason (there are other advantages), as it's exceedingly unlikely to happen. But if my own experience tells me anything, it's that second strikes can work. As for a second strike failure being "a damn sight" slower than just doing the drill, just how long does it take you to pull a trigger? Especially in a high stress situation? A fraction of a second is probably not going to make a difference in a fight. If it was, the failure drill is going to screw you over big time. Everything's a gamble at that point. Will the round fire if I pull the trigger again? Do I have time to do a failure drill? Am I going to do it right under a level of stress that I'm not used to?
     

    zackmars

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    It doesn't, BUT I have personally had to use a double strike to get a round to fire. Not under self defense circumstances, but I guess it still counts. Long story short, I got a hold of some not so reliable primers and didn't realize this until I had loaded up a couple hundred rounds of 9mm. Both of my 9mms are DA/SA, so when I got the occasional failure to fire, I just pulled the trigger again and 9 time out of 10, the round would fire.

    Obviously you don't want to use "junk" ammo like that for self defense, but you are not 100% guaranteed that a round will fire when you pull the trigger, even with premium ammo. There is always that tiny chance that you get that 1 round out of 10,000 that is a dud. I wouldn't buy a DA/SA just for that reason (there are other advantages), as it's exceedingly unlikely to happen. But if my own experience tells me anything, it's that second strikes can work. As for a second strike failure being "a damn sight" slower than just doing the drill, just how long does it take you to pull a trigger? Especially in a high stress situation? A fraction of a second is probably not going to make a difference in a fight. If it was, the failure drill is going to screw you over big time. Everything's a gamble at that point. Will the round fire if I pull the trigger again? Do I have time to do a failure drill? Am I going to do it right under a level of stress that I'm not used to?

    The point is that if that second strike doesn't work, you've wasted more time, vs going directly for the failure drill.

    If you are in a stressful situation, it's not really the time to try and diagnose the problem, you fix it, even if that means replacing things that aren't causing the malfunction (IE, different magazines)

    When you are shooting a revolver, do you try and fire it a few times after a click, or do you pop the cylinder open?
     

    Maverick44

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    The point is that if that second strike doesn't work, you've wasted more time, vs going directly for the failure drill.

    If you are in a stressful situation, it's not really the time to try and diagnose the problem, you fix it, even if that means replacing things that aren't causing the malfunction (IE, different magazines)

    When you are shooting a revolver, do you try and fire it a few times after a click, or do you pop the cylinder open?

    Your finger is already on the trigger, and you were more than likely going to pull it again anyways (unless of course your threat is already dealt with which make this argument a moot point). It takes a literal fraction of a second to pull it for a second strike attempt. That is not diagnosing a problem any more than dropping the mag, clearing the gun, and popping a new mag in is (which would take FAR longer to do than just pulling the trigger).

    It take so little time to just pull the damn trigger a second time, that it's not even worth arguing over. Is that 1/3 of a second really going to be a game changer for you? If so, how about the 4-5 seconds it takes to do a failure drill? You might have needed to do it, or you might not have. Again, it's a gamble. I'd much rather gamble 1/3 of a second over 4-5 seconds.

    A revolver is not relevant to this discussion. You are pulling the trigger on a new cartridge each time, not the same one.

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    zackmars

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    Your finger is already on the trigger, and you were more than likely going to pull it again anyways (unless of course your threat is already dealt with which make this argument a moot point). It takes a literal fraction of a second to pull it for a second strike attempt. That is not diagnosing a problem any more than dropping the mag, clearing the gun, and popping a new mag in is (which would take FAR longer to do than just pulling the trigger).

    It take so little time to just pull the damn trigger a second time, that it's not even worth arguing over. Is that 1/3 of a second really going to be a game changer for you? If so, how about the 4-5 seconds it takes to do a failure drill? You might have needed to do it, or you might not have. Again, it's a gamble. I'd much rather gamble 1/3 of a second over 4-5 seconds.

    A revolver is not relevant to this discussion. You are pulling the trigger on a new cartridge each time, not the same one.

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    You should be able to do a failire drill much faster than 4-5 seconds. Other than that, ok, fair enough.

    How is a revolver not relevant? Plenty of DAO and SAO revolvers out there, and there isn't a seperate forum for them.

    I'd say they're relevant, especially since I'd wager the vast majority of people carrying DAO's are carrying revolvers

    And a revolver holds a finite amount of ammo, and doesn't lock open.

    You aren't going to count how many rounds you shoot in a stressful situation, and plenty of shootings involve more than 5-8 rounds

    So the question stands.

    Your revolver goes click. What do you do? Do you hope it was a light strike and pull again, or do you start your reload?
     

    zackmars

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    Because when you pull the trigger it compresses the spring before the trigger breaks, releasing the striker. It's a technicality in my opinion. Runs too much like a single action for me to actually take that definition of striker fired pistols being DA seriously.

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    A PPQ is a fully cocked striker. Essentially SA. Its honestly a BIT too light for my tastes.

    Glocks are partially cocked, about 60%. Gock at one point described their trigger as a 1.5 action, or something similar.
     

    Maverick44

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    Did you notice what the title of this thread was?

    Again, a revolver is not relevant. They are not the same as a DAO semi auto, and have to be treated differently. To do a double strike attempt on a semi auto, all you have to worry about is pulling the trigger. On a revolver, if you want to retry a round, you have to keep track of which round was a dud (counting rounds in a high stress situation? Good luck with that), and unless the very first round was the dud, you'll have to pull the trigger multiple times to try a double strike.

    My argument was for semi autos, not revolvers. They are completely different in that regard.

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    zackmars

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    Did you notice what the title of this thread was?

    Again, a revolver is not relevant. They are not the same as a DAO semi auto, and have to be treated differently. To do a double strike attempt on a semi auto, all you have to worry about is pulling the trigger. On a revolver, if you want to retry a round, you have to keep track of which round was a dud (counting rounds in a high stress situation? Good luck with that), and unless the very first round was the dud, you'll have to pull the trigger multiple times to try a double strike.

    My argument was for semi autos, not revolvers. They are completely different in that regard.

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    You got me. I promise i can actually read.
     

    Kar98

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    There are DAO revolvers so they do apply, SAO revolvers exist too.

    That particular subject was about second strikes on chambered rounds in a DAO semi, and why "second strikes capability" is useful in advertising but nowhere else. ;)
     
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