In light of these Walmart incidents...
- Thread starter JakeCFH15
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Jesus Christ
I'm not gonna lie, feeling pretty insulted there now that I know who these two are. But fair enough.
The legal considerations can be found in Texas Penal Code Ch 9.31-.33
https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/PE/htm/PE.9.htm#9.31
Reality is it depends on each unique situation.
I don’t believe anyone was trying to insult you so much as trying to get you to take a step back, think about things, and maybe change some of your strategies to something a little more realistic.
This is a very diverse group on this forum, with lots of military and law enforcement experience scattered throughout. Most of us have passed the age of thinking we’re Rambo or Superman, and have gained a degree of wisdom that comes with that age. We’ve also garnered enough trigger time to know what’s realistic and what is most likely a losing situation.
And I understand that. However, at no time did I say my single plan was to hunt him down and pop him in the head from ten feet away ala John Wick, or rip out his throat with my bare hands like Rambo. I said that would be what I would subconsciously want to do. And from that came a legal question of "what could a prosecution come at me with if I decided to move from a relatively safe location inside a store to a dangerous side of the store in order to potentially shoot a shooter and stop them?" To state again, this is hypothetical.
I've more or less gotten the answers out of this thread that I was asking for, so thanks to those that provided some kind of legal response.
It would seem so. I'd want to escape from the store too, but I dunno if I could live with myself knowing I left the store leaving dozens of people to die and dozens more to get hurt despite the fact that I'm armed and probably one of the only people there that could've done something about it.
Until your link I totally forgot about Gecko45... And then I remember at the time thinking "this guy has a wife?"
Who takes multiple shots from 338 lapua anyway? LOL
The answer to your question legally is pretty simple. If you are in an active shooter event and you shoot the active shooter it's going to be a pretty hard time to prosecute you with public opinion hailing you as a hero.
That being said, if you hit a kid or an innocent bystander you're gonna pay for it. You're responsible for every round that leaves your barrel. Legally, financially, and morally.
Not knowing how many shooters or accomplices may be in the store or how well armored they are, and not knowing when police would arrive, I would go out the back. Most department store doors in the rear are alarmed, and that could alert authorities if they haven't already been alerted.
Only if I had no other choice would I engage an unknown factor. If I saw others I would probably try to get them out also. My advice is don't make yourself a target of a shooter or police.
Only if I had no other choice would I engage an unknown factor. If I saw others I would probably try to get them out also. My advice is don't make yourself a target of a shooter or police.
Nobody alive.
It’s also impossible for the responding police to differentiate between the bad guy with a gun and the good guy with a gun.
Variables are going to determine if you’re a hero or a putz.
When I went thru initial CHL training the instructor was quite determined to drill into us Offensive vs. Defensive actions.
Defensive shooting = you’re good.
Offensive shooting = you’re toast.
You move toward the threat you are escalating the need for force. Baaaad juju for you in court.
Only you can determine if you can live with which way you go.
I’ve run this very scenario in my mind many times.
If my family is with me they come first. It is my duty to get them to safety before all others. If I have to open fire doing so, so be it.
Another factor is where you are when the shooting happens.
Podunkville = you’re probably good.
Liberal shithole = you’re toast. Liberal DA can ruin you.
When I went thru initial CHL training the instructor was quite determined to drill into us Offensive vs. Defensive actions.
Defensive shooting = you’re good.
Offensive shooting = you’re toast.
You move toward the threat you are escalating the need for force. Baaaad juju for you in court.
Only you can determine if you can live with which way you go.
I’ve run this very scenario in my mind many times.
If my family is with me they come first. It is my duty to get them to safety before all others. If I have to open fire doing so, so be it.
Another factor is where you are when the shooting happens.
Podunkville = you’re probably good.
Liberal shithole = you’re toast. Liberal DA can ruin you.
BillFairbanks
Well-Known
Mass Shootings are stopped by a good guy with a gun much more often than the media would have you believe
It’s probably more helpful to look at actual situations than speak about hypotheticals
https://crimeresearch.org/2019/05/uber-driver-in-chicago-stops-mass-public-shooting/
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It’s probably more helpful to look at actual situations than speak about hypotheticals
https://crimeresearch.org/2019/05/uber-driver-in-chicago-stops-mass-public-shooting/
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
EDITED-because I can
..... my $.02, and worth as much. The caveat being nothing is written in stone....except, perhaps, those unfortunate souls whose images were engrave on a wall by Big Boy in 1945. The unexpected has a habit of biting our ass at times. Keep that in mind.
All the training in the world makes you aware, knowledgable, and much more capable than the other guy. Prepared, equipped to deal with variables and various methods to address them is part of the process of becoming one of those “best trained shooters in the world”.
Regarding civilians, they rarely respond adequately. The DPD shooter was trained and knew what to do and how to deal with threats and rapidly changing dynamics. The Dallas officers, did not. On two separate encounters during the sequence of events, officers gained a tactical advantage. They failed to exploit it. And paid for it with their lives.
Know your limits. I’ve seen highly trained PT studs do seriously stupid shit or make an understandable error in situation assessment or methodology. Everyone, makes mistakes. Would you risk your life if not needed just to experience the moment?
Unless absolutely necessary. Or your job. Negating the threat to yourself by getting away from the scene is reasonable and smart. You have a big Snap-On toolbox, loaded with tools. Can you rebuild...say....a jet engine with those tools? If you did, I sure as hell wouldn’t fly using it if you’d never done it before. Experience, and all the little niggly things that pop up totally unexpected gaining that experience, is the difference. In a gunfight, using a firearm is the easy part. One normal physiological response is flinching or spatial disorientation when shot at at close range by a threat you know is going to shoot at you, and you’re facing them while they’re taking you under fire. If it goes by in a blur, that’s another typical response. The abrupt loss of hearing and ringing in the ears from the sound pulse, another one that can affect the unwary in a manner similar to a flash bang. That, is a sample of some of the issues involved in surfing a gunfight. Issues you have no control over that are physiological and innate in nature requiring conditioning to overcome. Fail to do so, you will be incapacitated and unable to act competently to counter the threat. That, is a small sample of a number of physiological elements that have to be overcome.
Then there’s the issue of methodology. FISH, Free Flow, etc. if you know the meaning of the words I’d be suprised. Another issue, your tools and proper use...... you want to take on a shooter? You better be facing the back of the perps head point blank with a pistol in your hand.
fwiw, force on force training by a knowledgeable instructor will increase your chance of survival significantly if you find yourself in a situation where you have no other options than to defend yourself or others from a threat. No different than any other activity requiring knowledge, ability, and experience to acquire proficiency. You may know how to operate and drive a vehicle on the street, if a buddy gave you the keys to a 1200hp Hypercar car and said go for it, would hop in and run the track like a seasoned pro on ESPN with knowledge and experience acquired by driving a Ford pickup?
Last edited:
BillFairbanks
Well-Known
As for facing charges for accidentally shooting someone, the idiot who shot my wife faced no charges whatsoever. And he wasn’t trying to stop a mass shooting, he was just being reckless.
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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Run as fast as you can, to the sporting goods area. break into the guns and grab a 12 gauge.
The ammo for it is not locked. Grab anything with a zombie picture on it. Load up. Now vault the shelves from top to top towards the danger. As you come down on the aisle with the bad guy empty that shotgun into the guys gun hand, even if that hand is up. If you survive let us know and we will say, wow what an idiot. Nobody appointed you anybodies keeper and you is not a cop. If you have nobody there to protect get out or get real cover. Engage when the guy starts shooting next to you and yours and you must engage or die. Civilian heroes get better eulogies.
The ammo for it is not locked. Grab anything with a zombie picture on it. Load up. Now vault the shelves from top to top towards the danger. As you come down on the aisle with the bad guy empty that shotgun into the guys gun hand, even if that hand is up. If you survive let us know and we will say, wow what an idiot. Nobody appointed you anybodies keeper and you is not a cop. If you have nobody there to protect get out or get real cover. Engage when the guy starts shooting next to you and yours and you must engage or die. Civilian heroes get better eulogies.
If you really want to play this scenario out in your head, be sure to include the part after you successfully sneak through the store using both cover and concealment, get behind the bad guy and start squeezing off your first shot just as the police come in the door.
They see you, with your back to the door, firing a weapon. Since you're facing the same direction as the bad guy and you're both firing into the store, guess who all the cops are going to shoot at?
Then for good measure, throw in a couple of mall cops and other LTC holders into your scenario as well while the power goes out and the store manager activates the sprinkler system and flashing strobes.
If you want a better idea of how you would handle yourself, take some training classes that involve shooting while moving and some scenarios. If you want to go through scenarios in your head, don't think of how you'd be the hero saving everyone. Think of all the things that could possibly go wrong if you tried to, so if the situation ever arises, at least your situational awareness of all the bad possibilities will be higher.
As they used to preach to us, no battle plan ever survives first contact with the enemy.
They see you, with your back to the door, firing a weapon. Since you're facing the same direction as the bad guy and you're both firing into the store, guess who all the cops are going to shoot at?
Then for good measure, throw in a couple of mall cops and other LTC holders into your scenario as well while the power goes out and the store manager activates the sprinkler system and flashing strobes.
If you want a better idea of how you would handle yourself, take some training classes that involve shooting while moving and some scenarios. If you want to go through scenarios in your head, don't think of how you'd be the hero saving everyone. Think of all the things that could possibly go wrong if you tried to, so if the situation ever arises, at least your situational awareness of all the bad possibilities will be higher.
As they used to preach to us, no battle plan ever survives first contact with the enemy.
