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Why "Not" 40 Caliber?

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    Jarine88

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    That was the farthest thing from my mind when I started this thread. I have never owned a 40 and just wanted to learn a little about that caliber.
    But, as we all know, chit happens!

    Charlie,

    Your original question of why not 40 was answered, for me anyway. While there seems to be some debate of the merits of the different calibers, there were some nuggets in this thread. The 40 S&W will cost more to shoot and has more recoil than a 9mm. I would say that the one extra round would/could be negligible. The fact that there was 40 S&W to be had during the ammo shortage means you could have shot more.

    I have added getting a 40 S&W pistol to the list of weapons to buy. It may not be next on the list, but may go in the number two slot.
    DK Firearms
     

    jeepinbanditrider

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    People can talk about shot placement. So carry a .22, since you get even more rounds and after all a .22 between the eyes will kill. You know, that shot placement thing. Heck, get a needle gun and have even MORE capacity and even less recoil. It is a scientific fact that a perfectly placed needle can be fatal.

    Except for highly trained and experienced professionals, confidence is shot placement is not well placed (pun intended).

    Ok, so a person is supposed to achieve that perfect shot placement when the adrenaline is shooting through the body such that the hands may well be shaking, their heart is pounding so hard they can hear it in their ears, emotions are sky high, they are under attack and possibly under fire. Right. Great situation for the 95% of the people to achieve perfect shot placement. Umm, no. And a number of soldiers who have seen combat and LEO's who have been in gunfights have related these exact sentiments to me. And I value their experience more than that of any keyboard jockey.

    Bigger hole, more damage. Great likelihood of hitting something that will discourage the attacker from continuing. Shots don't have to be fatal, they do need to inflict enough pain and/or damage that the attacker either loses the will to keep up the attack or they cannot keep up the attack.
    Argumentum ad absurdum

    https://skyaboveus.com/hunting-shooting/Defensive-Handgun-Cartridges-are-all-the-Same-Facts-vs-Hype

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAGegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw10DVrk4SswQsgAgCh-Cf28

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    satx78247

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    Carry whatever.
    .22lr, ,32, ,380, .38, 9mm, .40, .357, 10mm, .45.

    What is important is you have a gun when you need it.

    Moonpie,

    TRUE to a point. - ImVho, the MOST important thing is being able to hit what you need to hit CONSISTENTLY & under STRESS. =====> a MISS with an 88mm direct fire gun is almost valueless BUT a solid hit to the K5 area is likely to stop most any human from continuing the fight.

    yours, satx
     

    Texasgordo

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    Guys, this thread is not about Glocks, it's about calibers.
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    ZX9RCAM

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    You have to know where things started

    The origional 9mm loads were 115lrn and some HP that didnt always perform well. By preform people are using the FBI testing protocols developed after the Miami shoot out.

    We got to the 40 after the FBI post mortem on the shootout. They determined specific preformance requirements in penetration and penetration after barriers were encountered. The 40 was a compromise because the 10mm was too much for many to shoot.

    Since that time alot of progress was made in 9mm projo's and powders to the point that 9mm 40 and 45acp preformed very close to each other in those tests, penetration and penetration after barriers. This started the massive transition in law enforcement back to 9mm.

    So while all 3 calibers benefited from work done to improve self defense ammo 9mm has made the most progress in those testing protocols.

    Thank you.

    Still doesn't seem to make sense to me.

    I will always think that equal improvement results in equal improvement.

    But this is my problem.
     

    Darkpriest667

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    Literally what I said 9 pages ago but more verbose


    Conclusion
    Current research indicates there is no distinct advantage based on a particular handgun cartridge. If, in fact, all handgun rounds provide the same effectiveness, the deciding factors are magazine capacity and lower recoil which allows a shooter to put more rounds on target in a shorter time period. More hits means a greater chance one, or more, bullets will find vital organs (Vail, Patrick, FBI). Hits are more effective than misses, regardless the cartrige's power. One must assume assailants will pose a threat even if shot multiple times. Maneuver and cover are just as important to gunfight survival as the gun. All self-defense handguns have limited power compared to rifles, and provide similar terminal performance across calibers
     

    satx78247

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    I'm being realistic about it, Mr Wick. I didn't realize I was in the presence of so many elite operators and assassins... /Sarcasm

    DyeF9,

    As I'm NEITHER an assassin NOR an "elite operator", perhaps you believe that my OPINION based in large part on ACTUAL experiences of combat soldiers from MG Joe Wheeler (who fought fanatic/drugged-up Moros) to, GIs of WWII & Korea(who "turned" charges of fanatic Japanese/North Koreans/CHICOMs) to the latest "close combat soldiers" (who stopped Afghan guerrillas at close range) is VALUELESS.
    (In my case, I was just a retired MP & SA/SSA for USACIDC & have "heard my share" of gunfire at close combat range.)

    For just ONE example of how SILLY that even suggesting that there is little/no difference in the STOPPING POWER of handgun cartridges, READ MG Joe Wheelers comments about the difference in shooting Moro pirates at pointblank range with a Colt's .38LC & a Scofield in .45Army was in the Philippines. = The 2 cartridges were about the SAME in velocity & both used bullets of similar construction. Neither the .30-40 Krag nor the .38LC would immediately stop Moro pirate's charges & the .45 Army would stop their charge "in their tracks" in nearly every case.
    Btw, the only other weapon that the USA had then that WOULD stop the Moros at close range was the 12 gauge shotgun with 00 buckshot.
    (General Wheeler's combat experience in fighting Moros is the MAIN reason that the M1911 pistol was adopted.)

    yours, satx
     

    DyeF9

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    DyeF9,

    As I'm NEITHER an assassin NOR an "elite operator", perhaps you believe that my OPINION based in large part on ACTUAL experiences of combat soldiers from MG Joe Wheeler (who fought fanatic/drugged-up Moros) to, GIs of WWII & Korea(who "turned" charges of fanatic Japanese/North Koreans/CHICOMs) to the latest "close combat soldiers" (who stopped Afghan guerrillas at close range) is VALUELESS.
    (In my case, I was just a retired MP & SA/SSA for USACIDC & have "heard my share" of gunfire at close combat range.)

    For just ONE example of how SILLY that even suggesting that there is little/no difference in the STOPPING POWER of handgun cartridges, READ MG Joe Wheelers comments about the difference in shooting Moro pirates at pointblank range with a Colt's .38LC & a Scofield in .45Army was in the Philippines. = The 2 cartridges were about the SAME in velocity & both used bullets of similar construction. Neither the .30-40 Krag nor the .38LC would immediately stop Moro pirate's charges & the .45 Army would stop their charge "in their tracks" in nearly every case.
    Btw, the only other weapon that the USA had then that WOULD stop the Moros at close range was the 12 gauge shotgun with 00 buckshot.
    (General Wheeler's combat experience in fighting Moros is the MAIN reason that the M1911 pistol was adopted.)

    yours, satx
    We're discussing modern cartridges, but I appreciate your experience from the past. At some point there was a considerable difference in capability between the most common cartridges, just not anymore.
     

    oldag

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    satx78247

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    Dyef9,

    And your PROOF is??
    (You know that "proof" that is NOT based on "some nameless expert's" THEORY, rather than actual effects of "fast moving projectiles" upon HUMAN's bodies, for example in Afghanistan in 2020.)

    There is an excellent reason that US "elite operators" NOW are acquiring .45ACP handguns again (privately), when they are issued (without cost to the GI) M9 & M11 handguns (and all the FREE ammo that they care to carry about) in 9mm NATO. = It's called "STOPPING POWER" at "close combat" handgun range, i.e., under 10M.

    yours, satx
     

    DyeF9

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    Comparing rifles and handguns? Really?

    Well then, I'll up the ante if we are going to play silly games. Do you think it would be more devastating to your body getting shot with a .223 from a run ofthe mill AR-15 or with a 105 mm howitzer?

    View attachment 201437
    It's a comparison of small arms. A howitzer is not small arms... There's some links to good articles now, read them or don't. I honestly don't have the energy to explain anything to someone who has no intention of learning anything and continuing to delude themselves of something that's not real.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAOegQIChAB&usg=AOvVaw10DVrk4SswQsgAgCh-Cf28
     
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    oldag

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    It's a comparison of small arms. A howitzer is not small arms... There's some links to good articles now, read them or don't. I honestly don't have the energy to explain anything to someone who has no intention of learning anything and continuing to delude themselves of something that's not real.
    And I won't waste more time with someone who chooses not to comprehend basic physics and biology.

    Have a good rest of your weekend.
     

    DyeF9

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    And I won't waste more time with someone who chooses not to comprehend basic physics and biology.

    Have a good rest of your weekend.
    You clearly have no concept of physics or biology. Feel free to hit up a local community college for a refresher.

    You as well.
     

    Mike_from_Texas

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    IMO the 40 was a solution looking for a problem since it’s inception. Ammo was so poor back when it was created that you had to step up to a 357 mag or 10mm to compensate. Many agents found those unpleasant to shoot and of course the revolvers had low capacity so the shortened 10mm was created with similar capacity to the 9mm.

    As CC exploded all over the country the demand for better personal defense Ammo strengthened and better Ammo was developed.

    Still the 40 is a bit snappier than the 9mm especially in the subcompact gums and typically has less capacity; not ideal circumstances. The proverbial nail in the coffin for the 40 is when most LE agencies switched to 9mm.

    I don’t think it will go away but I do think it will fall into an enthusiast round like the 10mm did for many years.


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    satx78247

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    I honestly don't have the energy to explain anything to someone who has no intention of learning anything and continuing to delude themselves of something that's not real.

    DyeF9,

    Your submission of "expert's theory", when compared to ACTUAL combat experience of REAL soldiers in "close combat", in a single/singularly appropriate word is: ABSURD.

    yours, satx
     
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