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Why "Not" 40 Caliber?

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    DyeF9

    In Thrust We Trust
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    DyeF9,

    Your submission of "expert's theory", when compared to ACTUAL combat experience of REAL soldiers in "close combat", in a single/singularly appropriate word is: ABSURD.

    yours, satx

    Yeah, I'm sure "my" theory supported by very recent FBI data is absurd. The fact that a pistol round is anemic in the first place makes your argument irrelevant. 150 ft lbs of energy is nothing. The speeds of the rounds don't make significant permanent wound cavities. It's a backup weapon in almost all cases of actual combat. Even older reports support this.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAOegQIChAB&usg=AOvVaw10DVrk4SswQsgAgCh-Cf28
    Target Sports
     

    satx78247

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    Yeah, I'm sure "my" theory supported by very recent FBI data is absurd. The fact that a pistol round is anemic in the first place makes your argument irrelevant. 150 ft lbs of energy is nothing. The speeds of the rounds don't make significant permanent wound cavities. It's a backup weapon in almost all cases of actual combat. Even older reports support this.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAOegQIChAB&usg=AOvVaw10DVrk4SswQsgAgCh-Cf28

    DyeF9,

    YEP. I repeat: Your THEORY, regardless of "source", when compared to the ACTUAL experience of combat soldiers "in close contact with the enemy" is simply: ABSURD.

    yours, satx
     

    DyeF9

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    DyeF9,

    YEP. I repeat: Your THEORY, regardless of "source", when compared to the ACTUAL experience of combat soldiers "in close contact with the enemy" is simply: ABSURD.

    yours, satx
    I just linked source, a few other people have linked source stating the same thing. You're just not reading anything, bud.
     

    satx78247

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    I just linked source, a few other people have linked source stating the same thing. You're just not reading anything, bud.

    DyeF9,

    There was a time (over 40 years ago) that I would have been impressed with anything that the "vaunted" FBI claimed/believed/said.

    In 2020, we all have learned that the FBI is best KNOWN for saying "whatever is popular with the 7th floor", regardless of THE TRUTH.

    yours, satx
     

    DyeF9

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    DyeF9,

    There was a time (over 40 years ago) that I would have been impressed with anything that the "vaunted" FBI claimed/believed/said.

    In 2020, we all have learned that the FBI is best KNOWN for saying "whatever is popular with the 7th floor", regardless of THE TRUTH.

    yours, satx
    Feel free to provide a source for some hard data to support your argument.
     

    V-Tach

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    If a particular gun I wanted was only available in .40 S&W...I would own a photey......but......I'm just not even remotely interested in the round. Others are and that's cool....but the .40 S&W doesn't represent some gigantic galaxy shaking improvement over other calibers I already shoot..... and every gun available in .40 S&W is available in a caliber I already load for.........
     

    cycleguy2300

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    No, because you can't get as many .40 cal bullets into the same size space as 9mm

    Also, pistol rounds are at their limit ballistics wise. All you get out of a .40 is a slightly bigger hole. You aren't stepping up to a rifle caliber after all.
    Its only extreme edge cases where the extra inch or two of penetration or the extra .02" diameter would have hit something vital than a smaller caliber missed.

    Think about volume. When you shoot something living, to kill it you either have to incapacitate the CNS or cause it to bleed out. Each shot you hit a target with leaves a wound channel. For pistol rounds the temporary wound channel really doesn't come into play, you are looking at the hole a bullet leaves after it (hopefully) expands and passes through tissue. There really can be no argument here that a bigger bullet, moving faster with more mass can expand more and destroy more tissue, increasing the likelihood of hitting a major artery, etc, however. If you can get a second accurate shot with a slightly "lesser" caliber now you have two wound channels, with more volume than the one "larger" bullet can make.

    There are trade offs with everything. I shoot 9mm because its what I have, is cheap and performs good enough for me. I can shoot it slightly better than a 40cal so I can get more accurate shots on target, with more wound channel volume than a 40. For me it is the better choice. If you REALLY can shoot a 40 as good as a 9mm, then it would be better. But if you can't the 9mm is a better round.

    Better is different for each person, everyone has a different application differing and abilities. Its like asking if a F1 car is better than a Stock car...

    Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk
     

    satx78247

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    Feel free to provide a source for some hard data to support your argument.

    DyeF9,

    WITH PLEASURE: In 2011, when I was a SSA with USACIDC, we worked a JOINT case of INDECENT ASSAULT & ORAL/ANAL SODOMY upon a 13YO female, with the FBI.
    (Fwiw, the victim was the DD of a SGT/E5 - The criminal was a local 28YO civilian. The attack occurred on post, while she was walking home from the PX Snack Bar.)

    When the criminal was captured, he was jointly interviewed with FBI/USACIDC agents & it was thereafter found (By then the ROI & the FBI's "draft" Report of Investigation had been completed by the FBI Senior Agent assigned.) that the sex criminal was the step-son of a "prominent local politician".

    After the Senior Agent received a PHONCON from FBI HQ the next morning, he changed his report completely & thereafter claimed that there was NO "clear & convincing evidence" that that criminal was the actual "subject" OR that the 13YO had actually been sexually assaulted by any "person or persons unknown".

    Over my career, I've also known of other felony cases, which had "political implications", wherein the reports were "unavoidably" LOST, "unfortunately" MISPLACED or changed, such that the actual criminal was NEVER indicted/tried/convicted/sentenced.
    (It has been my long experience that the FBI has some GOOD "field agents" but that when "pressured from the 7th Floor" that oftentimes the selfsame agents suddenly became "unavailable" or were "reassigned to other duties", witnesses "mysteriously disappeared" or were "unavoidably unavailable" OR simply never appeared for court.)

    Fwiw, in 2020, I (sadly) have to tell you that I personally know of NO major city/county/parish/State LE agency that FULLY TRUSTS the FBI to be helpful/honest/fair in their dealings with those local/State LE agencies.

    yours, satx
     
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    DyeF9

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    DyeF9,

    WITH PLEASURE: In 2011, when I was a SSA with USACIDC, we worked a JOINT case of INDECENT ASSAULT & ORAL/ANAL SODOMY upon a 13YO female, with the FBI.

    When the criminal was captured, he was jointly interviewed with FBI/USACIDC agents & it was thereafter found (By then the ROI & the FBI's "draft" Report of Investigation had been completed by the FBI Senior Agent assigned.) that the sex criminal was the step-son of a "prominent local politician".

    After the Senior Agent received a PHONCON from FBI HQ the next morning, he changed his report completely & thereafter claimed that there was NO "clear & convincing evidence" that that criminal was the actual "subject" OR that the 13YO had actually been sexually assaulted by any "person or persons unknown".

    Over my career, I've also known of other felony cases, which had "political implications", wherein the reports were "unavoidably" LOST, "unfortunately" MISPLACED or changed, such that the actual criminal was NEVER indicted/tried/convicted/sentenced.
    (It has been my long experience that the FBI has some GOOD "field agents" but that when "pressured from the 7th Floor" that oftentimes the selfsame agents suddenly became "unavailable" or were "reassigned to other duties", witnesses "mysteriously disappeared" or were "unavoidably unavailable" OR simply never appeared for court.)

    Fwiw, in 2020, I (sadly) have to tell you that I personally know of NO major city/county/parish/State LE agency that FULLY TRUSTS the FBI to be helpful/honest/fair in their dealings with those local/State LE agencies.

    yours, satx
    That's not actually hard data to support anything, but story time is alright too. Also I was referring to hard data to support your feelings about ballistics of pistol ammunition.
     

    Benjamin

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    Hello all. New kid here. I read through the entire thread including articles, and I have a question...
    All the talk about this caliber over that, capacity, shot placement etc. I can't help but notice nobody has opted to discuss the actual "ammo". Just FYI, I prefer a 9 from a SA/DA compact, brand withheld, since its irrelevant. I prefer a 9 because 1) I cut my teeth years ago on this arrangement in the military (old dogs, new tricks...) But there are many TYPES of rounds out there that equal the playing field. Its not the old fmj anymore. Why in all of this has nobody considered the effects of hyper expansion bullets, different weights, etc. ? I mean, the type of bullet you use for a given task is more important IMO that the caliber since nearly all calibers fire in excess of 1000fps. What do you think?
     

    satx78247

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    That's not actually hard data to support anything, but story time is alright too. Also I was referring to hard data to support your feelings about ballistics of pistol ammunition.

    DyeF9,

    SORRY. - I thought that you wanted to know WHY I so thoroughly DISTRUST & basically DESPISE the FBI.

    yours, satx
     

    ZX9RCAM

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    Hello all. New kid here. I read through the entire thread including articles, and I have a question...
    All the talk about this caliber over that, capacity, shot placement etc. I can't help but notice nobody has opted to discuss the actual "ammo". Just FYI, I prefer a 9 from a SA/DA compact, brand withheld, since its irrelevant. I prefer a 9 because 1) I cut my teeth years ago on this arrangement in the military (old dogs, new tricks...) But there are many TYPES of rounds out there that equal the playing field. Its not the old fmj anymore. Why in all of this has nobody considered the effects of hyper expansion bullets, different weights, etc. ? I mean, the type of bullet you use for a given task is more important IMO that the caliber since nearly all calibers fire in excess of 1000fps. What do you think?

    Welcome to the Forum!

    Did you read post #3?
     

    roadkill

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    45 is king. With no expansion you all ways have a .45” hole. With a 9 you have to have expansion to approach what a fmj 45 does. So carry a 45 with some sort of hollow point self defense round and know your already ahead of the curve when it comes to wound size. Even if it fails to expand or fully expand the wound channel is gonna be larger than other calibers all things being equal.
     

    Big Green

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    A lot of interesting information in this thread, even with the tangents.

    So, I found a great deal on a G22 and I’m gonna buy it. I can also swap out barrels for other calibers if I so desire. Seems like someone @Hoji swapped for a 357 SIG barrel.
     
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