Gun in car at worksite

[JGW006]

Constitutional rights should not disappear just because I go into a business that is open to the public.

They don’t disappear. Constitutional rights are protections from the government, not from private entities. If you want constitutional rights to apply to private persons / entities, then a constitutional amendment is needed.

But, be careful what you wish for, because that proposed amendment would apply not just to the 2A or to what you care about, but to everyone, everywhere:

- A doctor is now compelled to provide an abortion (easy example),even if the doctor is fundamentally, morally opposed?

- I can you you and your spouse for not inviting me to your 4th of July bbq in your backyard? Even if I don’t win that case against you, how much of your savings are you going to spend defending yourself?

- 41 year old man gets to sue The parents of a 15-year-old girl for age discrimination when they won’t let the girl date the 41-year-old man?

Respectfully,

JGW

 

[Axxe55]

Constitutional rights should not disappear just because I go into a business that is open to the public.

I have to agree with JGW on this. Constitutional rights are our rights recognized and affirmed by the government, and limits placed on what the government can't do.

If laws or an amendment were passed, negating, or restricting the rights of the property owner, it opens up a huge can of worms in regards to 4th Amendment rights. I promise you, we don't want to go down that road.

 

[JGW006]

And the lawyers that most people love to hate (until they need one) would make more money than can be imagined. Think about every employment law, civil rights law, discrimination law,…, Of every type. Each of those was passed into law pursuant to the equal protection clause of the constitution. That means that each of those laws could be enforced against a private individual.

Respectfully,

JGW

 

[oldag]

They don’t disappear. Constitutional rights are protections from the government, not from private entities. If you want constitutional rights to apply to private persons / entities, then a constitutional amendment is needed.

But, be careful what you wish for, because that proposed amendment would apply not just to the 2A or to what you care about, but to everyone, everywhere:

- A doctor is now compelled to provide an abortion (easy example),even if the doctor is fundamentally, morally opposed?

- I can you you and your spouse for not inviting me to your 4th of July bbq in your backyard? Even if I don’t win that case against you, how much of your savings are you going to spend defending yourself?

- 41 year old man gets to sue The parents of a 15-year-old girl for age discrimination when they won’t let the girl date the 41-year-old man?

Respectfully,

JGW

BBQ is private on private property. Example is totally inapplicable here. So is your last example.

You need to read what I wrote again.

 

[Axxe55]

And the lawyers that most people love to hate parentheticals until they need one) Delachal would make more money than can be imagined. Think about every employment law, civil rights law, discrimination law,…, Of every type. Each of those was past pursuant to the equal protection clause of the constitution. That means that each of those laws could be enforced against a private individual.

Respectfully,

JGW

Exactly. If there ever was one of those slipper slopes, reducing, restricting, or infringing upon the rights of a property owner sure seems like one to me. It opens up the door to the infringement, or even out-right violations of other rights.

 

[oldag]

I have to agree with JGW on this. Constitutional rights are our rights recognized and affirmed by the government, and limits placed on what the government can't do.

If laws or an amendment were passed, negating, or restricting the rights of the property owner, it opens up a huge can of worms in regards to 4th Amendment rights. I promise you, we don't want to go down that road.

So slavery by individuals or businesses is okay, because it is not the government doing it?

Business can perform search and seizure just because you stepped onto their property?

 

[Axxe55]

BBQ is private on private property. Example is totally inapplicable here. So is your last example.

You need to read what I wrote again.

Let me ask this then. Exactly what is private property?

 

[oldag]

Let me ask this then. Exactly what is private property?

Let me rephrase for clarity. Rather than private property, let's say it is property that is not a business open to the public.

A business open to the public should not be able to trump my 2A rights.

 

[oldag]

And if the Constitution only applies to government actions, then businesses can ban people from their premises based on race? Or make people of a certain race use the back door only?

 

[Axxe55]

Let me rephrase for clarity. Rather than private property, let's say it is property that is not a business open to the public.

A business open to the public should not be able to trump my 2A rights.

Being privately owned, makes no legal distinction of being open or accessible by the public. Private property is that it's privately owned by an individual or a company.

And trust me, restricting the rights of the property owner, opens up the legal avenues for really cunning lawyers to pursue legal means to sue any property owner for any manner of alleged, or perceived violations they can dream up.

 

[Axxe55]

And if the Constitution only applies to government actions, then businesses can ban people from their premises based on race? Or make people of a certain race use the back door only?

Those are civil rights, which on the face of them seem very similar to Constitutional rights, but are very different.

Now, if you could ever have law-abiding gun owners, classed as a class of protected citizens, like being black, or female, or gay, then you might get the protection of civil rights violations for legally carrying a firearm.

 

[dooladawg]

They don’t disappear. Constitutional rights are protections from the government, not from private entities. If you want constitutional rights to apply to private persons / entities, then a constitutional amendment is needed.

But, be careful what you wish for, because that proposed amendment would apply not just to the 2A or to what you care about, but to everyone, everywhere:

- A doctor is now compelled to provide an abortion (easy example),even if the doctor is fundamentally, morally opposed?

- I can you you and your spouse for not inviting me to your 4th of July bbq in your backyard? Even if I don’t win that case against you, how much of your savings are you going to spend defending yourself?

- 41 year old man gets to sue The parents of a 15-year-old girl for age discrimination when they won’t let the girl date the 41-year-old man?

Respectfully,

JGW

Welcome!! to the most bad-ass gun forum on planet earth.. AKA TEXAS.

 

[dooladawg]

Hey poster leVieux.. I heard that gunfighter Paladin's wife had her own business card.. it read: "have crack, will shack, till gun gets back"

 

[oldag]

Being privately owned, makes no legal distinction of being open or accessible by the public. Private property is that it's privately owned by an individual or a company.

And trust me, restricting the rights of the property owner, opens up the legal avenues for really cunning lawyers to pursue legal means to sue any property owner for any manner of alleged, or perceived violations they can dream up.

You are saying the law cannot distinguish between a business open to the public and other private property. That is simply incorrect.

 

[oldag]

Those are civil rights, which on the face of them seem very similar to Constitutional rights, but are very different.

Now, if you could ever have law-abiding gun owners, classed as a class of protected citizens, like being black, or female, or gay, then you might get the protection of civil rights violations for legally carrying a firearm.

Civil rights are constitutional rights.

 

[Axxe55]

Civil rights are constitutional rights.

I'm sorry they are not.

What is Civil Rights Law? Civil Rights vs Constitutional Rights

Civil rights law focuses on protecting people in society from certain types of discrimination. The sources of civil law in the United States are the United States Constitution, federal and state statutes, judicial opinions, case law, and administrative re

testmaxprep.com

Civil Rights & Constitutional Law | School of Law

www.bu.edu

Civil Rights and Constitution

The Constitution is the bedrock of our most fundamental civil rights. The ABA, through legislative and policy initiatives, raises and addresses complex civil liberties issues and protects individual rights.

www.americanbar.org

Civil Rights & Constitutional Law | School of Law

www.bu.edu

Now these are written by lawyers addressing the legal differences between civil rights and constitutional rights. These are not just legal opinions, but based upon current laws.

 

[Axxe55]

You are saying the law cannot distinguish between a business open to the public and other private property. That is simply incorrect.

If you believe I'm incorrect, please then show me ANY legal case, or finding, or law that says what you are saying.

I'll save you the trouble. I looked for it years ago. It's not there. Part of the reason I searched this is, my brother and I own a small business, that is open to the public. Some years ago, this same discussion came up about us placing 30.06 or 30.07 signs on the doors into the business. Private property and the property owner's rights to set the rules. So did a lot of searching the law, as far as I could find, there is no legal distinction in private property, and private property that is open, or accessible to the public.

 

[oldag]

I'm sorry they are not.

What is Civil Rights Law? Civil Rights vs Constitutional Rights

Civil rights law focuses on protecting people in society from certain types of discrimination. The sources of civil law in the United States are the United States Constitution, federal and state statutes, judicial opinions, case law, and administrative re

testmaxprep.com

Civil Rights & Constitutional Law | School of Law

www.bu.edu

Civil Rights and Constitution

The Constitution is the bedrock of our most fundamental civil rights. The ABA, through legislative and policy initiatives, raises and addresses complex civil liberties issues and protects individual rights.

www.americanbar.org

Civil Rights & Constitutional Law | School of Law

www.bu.edu

Now these are written by lawyers addressing the legal differences between civil rights and constitutional rights. These are not just legal opinions, but based upon current laws.

From the first article
The sources of civil law in the United States are the United States Constitution, ...

 

[oldag]

If you believe I'm incorrect, please then show me ANY legal case, or finding, or law that says what you are saying.

I'll save you the trouble. I looked for it years ago. It's not there. Part of the reason I searched this is, my brother and I own a small business, that is open to the public. Some years ago, this same discussion came up about us placing 30.06 or 30.07 signs on the doors into the business. Private property and the property owner's rights to set the rules. So did a lot of searching the law, as far as I could find, there is no legal distinction in private property, and private property that is open, or accessible to the public.

You are telling me there is not one single law that applies to a business open to the public that does not apply to your house?

We aren't going to agree on this. Just have to agree to disagree. I will not be convinced that a business open to the public has the right to negate my 2A rights.

 

[mongoose]

Private property is closed to the public ( your home as example). If a business refuses to allow you to carry a weapon to protect yourself then the business incurred that responsibility.