Legislative Director

[rotor]

Axxe55, are you really that firicken stupid, or do you try? Too much East Texas inbreading?

Just suppose that your distant cousin draws his pistol out and discharges it and hits a passer by. Since he doesn't have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of, who do you think that the passer by's heirs are going to go after monitarily? Civil lawsuits are not about who's right and who's wrong, its about who has the deepest pockets.

You have to mitigate your risks somehow.

So if I am in your store and a robbery occurs and I get wounded by a stray bullet from a robber I should sue you because you have deep pockets? You didn't protect me? Maybe.

 

[toddnjoyce]

That doesn't relieve you from civil lawsuits, just legal prosecution.
You can be sued for cause, but be fully protected from legal actions because you didn't break any laws.
Ask OJ how that worked out for him.

You did not answer my question.

 

[Dave Z]

So if I am in your store and a robbery occurs and I get wounded by a stray bullet from a robber I should sue you because you have deep pockets? You didn't protect me? Maybe.

As a property owner/lessee, its not my responsibility to protect you, that's what the police and your tax dollars are for.
But try going to a Disney property with a firearm. After they sell you your ticket to get in (they already have your money) you are required to pass through a metal detector. Once you are escorted from the premises, there is no refund.

 

[rotor]

As a property owner/lessee, its not my responsibility to protect you, that's what the police and your tax dollars are for.
But try going to a Disney property with a firearm. After they sell you your ticket to get in (they already have your money) you are required to pass through a metal detector. Once you are escorted from the premises, there is no refund.

Not to argue but you missed my point. If a LTC holder injures a customer with a missed shot than you are afraid of a lawsuit as you have deep pockets but if a crook shoots a customer during a robbery than you don't have deep pockets. Do you have a sign on your door saying no robberies allowed which would obviously protect you from deep pocket lawsuits? Sarcasm just in case.

Look, I ran a business for 40 years, I never had a clause in my insurance that required a no guns sign of any type, I never met a LTC holder that I didn't like, I always kept a loaded .357 Magnum easily reachable. And I did have a responsibility to protect my customers. Had to have disabled parking, disability ramps, proper signs showing exits, proper handles in toilets to aid disabled, fire extinguishers, and all the other safety issues that every business needs. Try locking doors so that people can't get out in a fire. Or even better, try holding a rap concert in Houston and see if you need to "protect" your customers.

 

[Axxe55]

Spreadsheet updated.

 

[benenglish]

I'm not going to bother fully cleaning up this thread but I wish people would be a bit more civil to each other. We're (supposedly) all on the same side, after all.

 

[Charlie]

I'm not going to bother fully cleaning up this thread but I wish people would be a bit more civil to each other. We're (supposedly) all on the same side, after all.

Best post so far!!!

 

[toddnjoyce]

As a property owner/lessee, its not my responsibility to protect you, that's what the police and your tax dollars are for.
But try going to a Disney property with a firearm. After they sell you your ticket to get in (they already have your money) you are required to pass through a metal detector. Once you are escorted from the premises, there is no refund.

Do you, as a shopkeeper sell tickets for entry, require all ticketed entrants to pass through metal detectors, have your own physical security ops team and First Aid centers for the folks entering your shop?

Disney does.

 

[Axxe55]

As a property owner/lessee, its not my responsibility to protect you, that's what the police and your tax dollars are for.
But try going to a Disney property with a firearm. After they sell you your ticket to get in (they already have your money) you are required to pass through a metal detector. Once you are escorted from the premises, there is no refund.

Apples to oranges comparison. Disney is using metal-detectors, plus they have ample onsite security on the premises, plus having control over entrance and exiting the premises.

Not hardly the same thing as store, or business open to the public, where anyone can pretty much come and go as they please.

 

[Axxe55]

Do you, as a shopkeeper sell tickets for entry, require all ticketed entrants to pass through metal detectors, have your own physical security ops team and First Aid centers for the folks entering your shop?

Disney does.

I'm pretty sure they also have CCTV systems in place all over the premises.

 

[seeker_two]

Disney also has a numerous and competent armed security force on the property that will protect tourists.... even if only to protect Disney from liability and bad press.

When the local grocery store/bistro/boutique/etc. can provide the same protection, I'll consider entering without an obvious weapon. Until then, I'll continue to be the lead agent of my personal protection detail....and equip accordingly.

 

[AndiTurner]

Okay, wow, this took quite the turn, lol!

Since I don't personally know most of you, I will say that debating public policy can be a very passionate. Sometimes it gets the better of all of us but as a previous poster (admin?) said, let's keep in mind that we all are on the same side here. Lord knows, I'm not always as patient as I should be (usually with a gun control nut but I do try lol)

And yes, there are very definitely other issues to consider when we are crafting ideas for good policy--property rights as an example. I need to go back and re-read all of the thoughts and opinions expressed here before I can even begin to formulate a solid idea.

So, if you have more thoughts, please keep up the discussion and while I may not be commenting on every thought, I am reading!

 

[toddnjoyce]

Okay, wow, this took quite the turn, lol!

Welcome to TGT!

Okay, wow, this took quite the turn, lol!
…
So, if you have more thoughts, please keep up the discussion and while I may not be commenting on every thought, I am reading!

I sent the email you asked; understand it’s a barebones concept in written form but I think when we talk further you’ll see it really is an attempt at a Grand Compromise. Property owners aren’t going to lose their ability to legally discriminate against customers; Permitless Carry is still going to be a little disfavored, and LTC won’t be a blank check. What gets streamlined/standardized are the signs and the code. What gets added is a mechanism for accountability that can also be used to inform DPS’s crime report while providing data to further inform 2A policy going forward.

 

[Axxe55]

The last thing we need are more laws, or more confusing signs to point out who, or who can't enter with a weapon.

Rights of the property owner, or the business should always have to right to set their own policy regarding whether they do, or don't allow weapons on their premises. But it should be about nothing more than simple trespassing, unless the person just wants to be an ass about it.

I also think that we should have the right to defend ourselves. I think that is primary reason we carry in the first place. Having the means to defend ourselves, and our loved ones.

I think as gun owners and those that choose to carry on daily basis, that we should also use the power of our wallets to send the message of what we think about a store, a restaurant, or any business that decides to prohibit the carrying of weapons within their establishments.

I think there needs to be a balance between the daily carrying of a weapon to defend ourselves, while at the same time being able to protect the rights of a property owner.

 

[Charlie]

It's great to live is a small, country town. A great deal of folks around here open carry. And probably a lot conceal carry!

 

[Sasquatch]

The last thing we need are more laws, or more confusing signs to point out who, or who can't enter with a weapon.

Rights of the property owner, or the business should always have to right to set their own policy regarding whether they do, or don't allow weapons on their premises. But it should be about nothing more than simple trespassing, unless the person just wants to be an ass about it.

I also think that we should have the right to defend ourselves. I think that is primary reason we carry in the first place. Having the means to defend ourselves, and our loved ones.

I think as gun owners and those that choose to carry on daily basis, that we should also use the power of our wallets to send the message of what we think about a store, a restaurant, or any business that decides to prohibit the carrying of weapons within their establishments.

I think there needs to be a balance between the daily carrying of a weapon to defend ourselves, while at the same time being able to protect the rights of a property owner.

We need to scrap all the laws governing carry and implement permitless carry without all the burdensome bullshit attached to it, and licensed carry.

Remove force-of-law from no-guns signs and make it incumbent upon a business manager / owner / responsible person ask a person to leave.

You could even, as was pointed out by another poster about Wisconsin, grant civil immunity to businesses that *no not* post their premises as gun-free zones from any lawsuit pertaining to someone being harmed by a criminal on said premises. Might make folks like Dave less likely to get their panties in a twist.

You could also add one more law - prohibiting insurance carriers from prohibiting legal carry of firearms at businesses that are open to the public and putting it into the law that they *cannot* increase a premium because of that law, and that the premiums shall be comparable to any other similar location in the country for a given industry. Insurance is already heavily regulated, may as well add a couple more lines to those regulations to protect the lawfully armed from discrimination.

 

[Axxe55]

We need to scrap all the laws governing carry and implement permitless carry without all the burdensome bullshit attached to it, and licensed carry.

Remove force-of-law from no-guns signs and make it incumbent upon a business manager / owner / responsible person ask a person to leave.

You could even, as was pointed out by another poster about Wisconsin, grant civil immunity to businesses that *no not* post their premises as gun-free zones from any lawsuit pertaining to someone being harmed by a criminal on said premises. Might make folks like Dave less likely to get their panties in a twist.

You could also add one more law - prohibiting insurance carriers from prohibiting legal carry of firearms at businesses that are open to the public and putting it into the law that they *cannot* increase a premium because of that law, and that the premiums shall be comparable to any other similar location in the country for a given industry. Insurance is already heavily regulated, may as well add a couple more lines to those regulations to protect the lawfully armed from discrimination.

Living in the county I do which is Anderson, outside of Palestine which has a population of about 18K and Elkhart with a population of about 1100. I am just not seeing a lot of pushback from store, restaurants or business' posting up signs prohibiting the carrying of firearms within their establishments.

Even after permitless carry passed in Texas, I even make an effort to see what actually changed. Not much. I thin I saw one business that had a 30.05 sign posted.

Maybe in the larger cities, it might be much different, I have no idea.

Purely speculation on my part. I suspect that some larger companies prohibit carry as a blanket policy to cover all of their stores regardless of what state the store is in, with no concern over state laws covering the legal carrying of firearms.

 

[Sasquatch]

Living in the county I do which is Anderson, outside of Palestine which has a population of about 18K and Elkhart with a population of about 1100. I am just not seeing a lot of pushback from store, restaurants or business' posting up signs prohibiting the carrying of firearms within their establishments.

Even after permitless carry passed in Texas, I even make an effort to see what actually changed. Not much. I thin I saw one business that had a 30.05 sign posted.

Maybe in the larger cities, it might be much different, I have no idea.

Purely speculation on my part. I suspect that some larger companies prohibit carry as a blanket policy to cover all of their stores regardless of what state the store is in, with no concern over state laws covering the legal carrying of firearms.

I may or may not have seen signs going up at Walmart, HEB (their 30.05 signs are in black, not contrasting, and put in the lower sections near the ground not readily apparent to those entering their establishments) and other larger businesses.

Walmart *used* to have company policy of abiding by the local carry laws - and in most places that meant open carry was good to go, as well as concealed. Ever since the shooting later year, that caused them to stop selling pistol ammo and "assault rifle ammo" - they started also slapping up no-guns signs.

With the transfer of wealth, the closing of mom & pop shops all across the country, and the big boxes consolidating even more marketshare - its even more important we don't lose our individual rights in favor of "corporate rights"

 

[Charlie]

"Corporations" have no rights. "People" have rights!

 

[Sasquatch]

"Corporations" have no rights. "People" have rights!

I think the courts ruled, during the Bush administration, that corporations are people and have rights