TRAFFIC STOPS

[Sam7sf]

@A1Oni try going to a tgt meet sometime. You shared something very private with saying you’re autistic. Most of us do not care and accept you for the way god made you.

No one will ever see eye to eye but take cycle guy for example. I haven’t met him and I already wish more cops had his mentality. You can ask anyone who’s met me I’m a weird sob. I’ve been the subject of bad friendships and sometimes that chip on my shoulder shows. For most of my life I didn’t have a lot of friendships and being on tgt is better for me to make friends. Just don’t sell yourself short with making friends off here. Tone down some of the attitude. No that’s not giving you a hard time it’s me trying to let you know you don’t need your shields up around us. Every place has some bad apples but overall tgt has outstanding folks.

Per thread conversation and getting pulled over, if you haven’t already, try to let officers know you’re autistic and just say sorry for any mannerisms that might be confusing. This is Texas. Some excellent folks in this state that do the lords work. You will be surprised how many officers will offer understanding. Some might not smile. Some might have a bad day. But put some faith into them first.

 

[Vaquero]

@A1Oni try going to a tgt meet sometime. You shared something very private with saying you’re autistic. Most of us do not care and accept you for the way god made you.

No one will ever see eye to eye but take cycle guy for example. I haven’t met him and I already wish more cops had his mentality. You can ask anyone who’s met me I’m a weird sob. I’ve been the subject of bad friendships and sometimes that chip on my shoulder shows. For most of my life I didn’t have a lot of friendships and being on tgt is better for me to make friends. Just don’t sell yourself short with making friends off here. Tone down some of the attitude. No that’s not giving you a hard time it’s me trying to let you know you don’t need your shields up around us. Every place has some bad apples but overall tgt has outstanding folks.

Per thread conversation and getting pulled over, if you haven’t already, try to let officers know you’re autistic and just say sorry for any mannerisms that might be confusing. This is Texas. Some excellent folks in this state that do the lords work. You will be surprised how many officers will offer understanding. Some might not smile. Some might have a bad day. But put some faith into them first.

Well stated.

 

[cbp210]

Easy solution.

You can comply with everything needed for a complete traffic stop and not say a word if you have your drivers license and proof of financial responsibility.

It's pretty hard for an officer to go on a fishing expedition when you're not bumping your gums and giving officers PC for a search.

STFU, but still be polite and act like you have some sense and you have a 99.9% chance of the stop going okay. That 90k you just won at the casino and stored in the spare tire will likely not get seized by following this advice.


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The advice you gave is great and awesome 20 years ago. It has not happened to me but I have talked with people that has happened to them especially in TN. Also your advice about remaining silent does trigger certain patrol officers. You should check out Youtube to see what I am talking about.

 

[Brains]

Unfortunately true, thankfully rare. I had a cop decades back lose his shit and unexpectedly start screaming at me. He shoved the citation on his clipboard and a pen and barked "sign this." When I took a handful of seconds to try and read the citation, he blows up at me, loudly proclaiming how he was "going to throw my ass in jail if you don't sign this f#*king ticket right now!!!" For context, I was stopped for speeding, had JUST moved to the state (WI plates on the car, WI license, etc.), and was trying to figure out local procedures. Not sure why, but he got me out of the car so our little conversation happened between my back bumper and his cruiser. When he barked at me, I took one step away from him, looked him in the eye, looked back at his car and saw the camera was on, looked back at him and said something to the effect of "look, I have no issue signing the citation but as I'm sure you've noticed I'd just moved from out of state and I don't know your local procedures. I'd appreciate you helping me out and not threatening me." He defensively replied "I didn't threaten you" and I questioned back "did you not just say you were going to throw my ass in jail if I don't sign this right f'ing now?" Thankfully he dropped most of his attitude problem and told me the bare minimum of how to contact the court, pointed out the location on the back of the ticket, etc. Then he had to nerve to add in the whole part about how he could take me in for moving to the state without changing my license over. That one was easy. "Would you like to see the paperwork from the U-Haul trailer I had on the back of this car two days ago? I don't even have a place of my own yet so I can't show you a lease agreement."

 

[cbp210]

Unfortunately true, thankfully rare. I had a cop decades back lose his shit and unexpectedly start screaming at me. He shoved the citation on his clipboard and a pen and barked "sign this." When I took a handful of seconds to try and read the citation, he blows up at me, loudly proclaiming how he was "going to throw my ass in jail if you don't sign this f#*king ticket right now!!!" For context, I was stopped for speeding, had JUST moved to the state (WI plates on the car, WI license, etc.), and was trying to figure out local procedures. Not sure why, but he got me out of the car so our little conversation happened between my back bumper and his cruiser. When he barked at me, I took one step away from him, looked him in the eye, looked back at his car and saw the camera was on, looked back at him and said something to the effect of "look, I have no issue signing the citation but as I'm sure you've noticed I'd just moved from out of state and I don't know your local procedures. I'd appreciate you helping me out and not threatening me." He defensively replied "I didn't threaten you" and I questioned back "did you not just say you were going to throw my ass in jail if I don't sign this right f'ing now?" Thankfully he dropped most of his attitude problem and told me the bare minimum of how to contact the court, pointed out the location on the back of the ticket, etc. Then he had to nerve to add in the whole part about how he could take me in for moving to the state without changing my license over. That one was easy. "Would you like to see the paperwork from the U-Haul trailer I had on the back of this car two days ago? I don't even have a place of my own yet so I can't show you a lease agreement."

It is situations like this why many people say to record them during all interactions. I never had any issues with Texas police as most of them are true professionals. Dash cams are your best friend to deal with dishonest officers when they lie and make claims you violated the law.

 

[Sasquatch]

@A1Oni try going to a tgt meet sometime. You shared something very private with saying you’re autistic. Most of us do not care and accept you for the way god made you.

No one will ever see eye to eye but take cycle guy for example. I haven’t met him and I already wish more cops had his mentality. You can ask anyone who’s met me I’m a weird sob. I’ve been the subject of bad friendships and sometimes that chip on my shoulder shows. For most of my life I didn’t have a lot of friendships and being on tgt is better for me to make friends. Just don’t sell yourself short with making friends off here. Tone down some of the attitude. No that’s not giving you a hard time it’s me trying to let you know you don’t need your shields up around us. Every place has some bad apples but overall tgt has outstanding folks.

Per thread conversation and getting pulled over, if you haven’t already, try to let officers know you’re autistic and just say sorry for any mannerisms that might be confusing. This is Texas. Some excellent folks in this state that do the lords work. You will be surprised how many officers will offer understanding. Some might not smile. Some might have a bad day. But put some faith into them first.

I've met @cycleguy2300 a few times now - stand up dude, and yeah, more cops should be like him. Police chiefs should be more like him and less, well, spineless administrators.

Most police officers I"ve dealt with are good people, there've been a few assholes over the years. Some are just shitty people, who in turn make shitty cops. Some just probably had a bad day - we all have them, and having a piece of tin on your chest doesn't make you immune as much as we'd like it to be.

It sucks that @A1Oni has had bad experiences that left him jaded, its understandable though, especially with the Autism. A lot of people don't "get it" when it comes to dealing with people on the spectrum - so you get labelled as weird, or suspicious when in fact you're just trying to hold shit together because its not a situation you're able to deal with like most other people.

 

[cbp210]

I've met @cycleguy2300 a few times now - stand up dude, and yeah, more cops should be like him. Police chiefs should be more like him and less, well, spineless administrators.

Most police officers I"ve dealt with are good people, there've been a few assholes over the years. Some are just shitty people, who in turn make shitty cops. Some just probably had a bad day - we all have them, and having a piece of tin on your chest doesn't make you immune as much as we'd like it to be.

It sucks that @A1Oni has had bad experiences that left him jaded, its understandable though, especially with the Autism. A lot of people don't "get it" when it comes to dealing with people on the spectrum - so you get labelled as weird, or suspicious when in fact you're just trying to hold shit together because its not a situation you're able to deal with like most other people.

In defense if @A1Oni I have witnessed through many video recordings as well comments from other families within the Autism community police misconduct towards people in the spectrum. It is very disturbing and what scares me the most is my middle son who is 9 is on the spectrum as well so I am very familiar with all the negativity with spectrum kids and law enforcement contact. Most cases I have looked through usually involves officers not familiar with special needs individuals while some is straight out vicious as this one case in Florida and another in Arizona where officers viciously attacked one adult and one teenager on the spectrum. I see the two and can easily tell they were on the spectrum.

 

[Mowingmaniac 24/7]

Is there a broad outline of spectrum folks generally considered odd behavior or is it too varied?

The only one I'm familiar with is 'no direct eye contact' and perhaps slow to answer questions.

 

[cbp210]

Is there a broad outline of spectrum folks generally considered odd behavior or is it too varied?

The only one I'm familiar with is 'no direct eye contact' and perhaps slow to answer questions.

Very great question. It is too varied. You have those who are verbal and non verbal. Some communicate with hands while others use broken sentences to communicate. Some are sensitive to noise while others are sensitive to bright lights. The list goes on and on. My son is considered non verbal and he does not make eye contact with strangers. I had one lady yell at him at Denny's because he likes to repeat cartoon phrases from his electronic device and I chewed her ass off hard her husband did not make eye contact with me and my wife.

 

[Mowingmaniac 24/7]

cpb210,

Thank you.

That's helpful information.

 

[cbp210]

cpb210,

Thank you.

That's helpful information.

Anytime. It is great you are asking questions and wanting to know how to interact with them. I just hope some people here do not look at this as anti law enforcement as we are not but asking for more training and awareness and accountability.

 

[BobCat]

At the suggestion of an acquaintance on another forum, I have a plastic-laminated card between my CHL and driver's license, that says "Deaf guy, will comply, please speak clear and slow". I know it should say 'clearly' and 'slowly' and 'hard of hearing' not 'deaf' but there is only so much room on the card, depending on the font.

This topic came up on that forum - https://forum.hearingtracker.com/t/hearing-loss-and-police-interactions/65542 - a while back, not related to traffic stops but to all interactions between HOH (hard of hearing) people and the police.

I know several police officers and they are decent, good guys, trying to do a difficult job in potentially dangerous circumstances. Still, they can shoot you down like a rabid skunk and walk away spotless, if they can articulate why they felt it necessary to do so.

Like people on the autism spectrum, HOH people do not act right - slow to respond (takes time to understand what was said, even if one does finally figure it out) and can appear resistant to obeying commands. Or if deaf on one side, they might be head twisting to get the hearing aid on the "good" side facing the speaker (police officer). Looks weird.

So - maybe it might be wise to make a card that explains one's particular situation - autism or deafness or whatever - and carry it with CHL/LTC and DL and car insurance. Couldn't hurt, might save your bacon.

If it is against the rules to post a link to another forum, sorry - please delete!

 

[Sasquatch]

At the suggestion of an acquaintance on another forum, I have a plastic-laminated card between my CHL and driver's license, that says "Deaf guy, will comply, please speak clear and slow". I know it should say 'clearly' and 'slowly' and 'hard of hearing' not 'deaf' but there is only so much room on the card, depending on the font.

This topic came up on that forum - https://forum.hearingtracker.com/t/hearing-loss-and-police-interactions/65542 - a while back, not related to traffic stops but to all interactions between HOH (hard of hearing) people and the police.

I know several police officers and they are decent, good guys, trying to do a difficult job in potentially dangerous circumstances. Still, they can shoot you down like a rabid skunk and walk away spotless, if they can articulate why they felt it necessary to do so.

Like people on the autism spectrum, HOH people do not act right - slow to respond (takes time to understand what was said, even if one does finally figure it out) and can appear resistant to obeying commands. Or if deaf on one side, they might be head twisting to get the hearing aid on the "good" side facing the speaker (police officer). Looks weird.

So - maybe it might be wise to make a card that explains one's particular situation - autism or deafness or whatever - and carry it with CHL/LTC and DL and car insurance. Couldn't hurt, might save your bacon.

If it is against the rules to post a link to another forum, sorry - please delete!

This reminds me of use of force training I took part in eons ago as a security monkey.

When I was taking my armed certification class - we were presented scenarios with video - shoot-no-shoot decisions. One such scenario was a young deaf person. We were, naturally in the role of an officer giving commands to this person, who was not responding and kept advancing for about ten or fifteen seconds. At the end - if you hadn't shot him at that point - he took his wallet out with such a card as you described that just said "Sorry, I'm deaf" - I don't think a single one of us in the class let him get to the end the first go-round without shooting.

People with non-visible disabilities are a lot harder for the average person to detect and deal with, unless you know someone with such a disability or you've had training in interacting with them you won't know.

Unfortunately - in a lot of the high stress scenarios especially - the perceived (or real) lack of compliance by the disabled person can wind up with them on the receiving end of use of force because the cop or security person in some cases has to make a split second decision - one that could get them hurt or killed if they don't act and the person is an actual bad actor, or one that gets the disabled person hurt or killed if they mistake their disability for malice. You could wear a neon T-shirt that says "I'M DEAF" or "I HAVE AUTISM" and it still wouldn't matter because they may not notice it, may not believe it, and if it did work, bad people would start doing it to make the police think they were disabled to get them to hesitate.

 

[BobCat]

You are right, but in your initial exercise the "deaf" person was advancing. I doubt any of the trainees would have shot him had he held still, hands in the air, and made zero threatening moves. Noncompliance is not, in itself, threatening.

It is less dangerous for the officer to hesitate if the person is not advancing or reaching for anything.

Years ago I saw a youtube video of a young (black if it matters) kid getting stopped by a police officer. Officer asked for his ID, kid abruptly turned and reached into his truck (for his jacket, that had his wallet, that had his ID), and the cop shot him because he moved fast and reached for something, instead of nodding his head and saying, "I'll give you my ID, it is in my wallet in my jacket on the seat of my truck, may I get it or would you prefer I stand aside and let you retrieve it?" Can't say what might have happened but I think I can say that his abrupt, unexplained movement got him shot.

Sometimes there are no good answers.

 

[seeker_two]

In some ways, I blame the move away from DA revolvers and pistols to Glock-style light triggers, as well as the push for fast split-times, for this trend. LEOs are trained to shoot fast and frequent instead of taking time to evaluate situations. I don't blame the LEOs as much as I blame the trainers and the administrators that feel it's cheaper to teach a LEO to shoot/tase/spray a perp than it is to teach a LEO to think....

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[cycleguy2300]

In defense if @A1Oni I have witnessed through many video recordings as well comments from other families within the Autism community police misconduct towards people in the spectrum. It is very disturbing and what scares me the most is my middle son who is 9 is on the spectrum as well so I am very familiar with all the negativity with spectrum kids and law enforcement contact. Most cases I have looked through usually involves officers not familiar with special needs individuals while some is straight out vicious as this one case in Florida and another in Arizona where officers viciously attacked one adult and one teenager on the spectrum. I see the two and can easily tell they were on the spectrum.

Look, I get it. If you have a bad, or several bad experiences with something, you are likely to begin treating all of that group as dangerous, which unfortunately for the person in the case of dealing with police will tend to create poorer outcomes because the person argues, fights, flees, &c, which is no fault of the current cop, but one they now have to deal with and the interaction will be interpreted by the citizen as "another cop being a jerk"when in fact it is confirmation bias. While some police need to really evaluate why they are requesting or demanding something, the VAST majority do an amazing job at recognizing signs of IDD, autism, dementia &c


The following is a commendation I got a while back. I hate showing it because it feels really "look how good I am"... I share it not because it was me, but because I want to show there are cops doing it right. There could be a hundred of these written every day for APD officers... I am a decidedly mediocre cop, but a little listening and explanation go a long way. He was "in custody", but I took the time to explain my actions that he was going to be searched, why he needed to be searched then I searched him. Thankfully he was cool because I have to be safe regardless of his triggers.

Dec 18, 2018

I am writing to you today because I want to make you both aware that there is an outstanding officer in your division that I believe is worthy of recognition. His name is Officer Cycleguy2300, and on Saturday, November 10, 2018 he was the responding officer when I called in distress, searching for my 14 year-old son, who has autism and who had run away. He was behaving erratically that morning and I could see his level of agitation was escalating. I convinced him to get in the car with me and we drove to Travis County Integral Care but he became afraid after we got there and ran away. He called the police (something he liked to do) to tell them he was scared and wanted to go home. The officers who responded convinced him to get back in the car with me so that we could go and get an evaluation at Austin Oaks Hospital. The drive to Austin Oaks was difficult, as he was threatening to hurt himself while screaming at me and banging his head on the window. As soon as I parked the car at Austin Oaks, he opened the door and ran. I searched for him for close to an hour before calling Austin Police and requesting a mental health officer to come and please help me. I had just found him hiding in a fenced garbage area when Officer Cycleguy2300 arrived. Officer Cycleguy2300 asked to speak to him alone, and after about 15-20 minutes he came and spoke to me. He was calm in his delivery, something I needed after the last few hours of fear, threatening behavior and screaming. He explained to me that he had admitted he had been thinking about hurting himself and that he was now required to take him to a hospital for an evaluation. We had never been in a situation like this and I had a lot of questions which Officer Cycleguy2300 patiently answered. He shared that he used to work as a substitute teacher, and I could see for myself that he understood how to talk to kids. My son was more relaxed sitting in the back of Officer Cycleguy2300's cruiser than he had been all day. After I determined that we should go to Dell Children's Hospital instead of staying at Austin Oaks, Officer Cycleguy2300 offered to take him and said, "I get paid the same whether I'm chasing bad guys or driving in Austin traffic." I followed him to Dell Children's Hospital and so appreciated that Officer Cycleguy2300 walked him in and got him situated in a room and with a nurse while I was checking in. It seemed like once Officer Cycleguy2300 arrived on the scene that day, he calmly assessed the situation, took control, helped me feel safe, listened to my son and earned his trust. Later, my son shared that they were talking about "school and stuff" on the ride to the hospital. I am so very thankful that it was Officer Cycleguy2300 who showed up that day. After a morning of crisis and chaos, we both feel blessed that it was he who answered the call. As a mother of a child with a disability, a child who happens to be 6 feet tall and weigh 240 pounds, I am always afraid that my son's words and actions will be misinterpreted and he will face harsh treatment and punishment. I'm thankful to live in Austin where we have so many officers who have received specialized training in mental health issues and can better understand the IDD community to which we belong.

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[cycleguy2300]

In some ways, I blame the move away from DA revolvers and pistols to Glock-style light triggers, as well as the push for fast split-times, for this trend. LEOs are trained to shoot fast and frequent instead of taking time to evaluate situations. I don't blame the LEOs as much as I blame the trainers and the administrators that feel it's cheaper to teach a LEO to shoot/tase/spray a perp than it is to teach a LEO to think....

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Trained to shoot fast instead of evaluating the situation?

Since when? That's news to me...

Sent from your mom's house using Tapatalk

 

[Sasquatch]

In some ways, I blame the move away from DA revolvers and pistols to Glock-style light triggers, as well as the push for fast split-times, for this trend. LEOs are trained to shoot fast and frequent instead of taking time to evaluate situations. I don't blame the LEOs as much as I blame the trainers and the administrators that feel it's cheaper to teach a LEO to shoot/tase/spray a perp than it is to teach a LEO to think....

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk

Move away from DA revolvers was predicated by them being outdated tech, and left police outgunned by the average criminal that had moved to automatics and/or rifles. Even by the 1920's, five or six shot DA revolvers left police decidedly outgunned by anyone with a few bucks and a Sears catalog - they could get a Thompson mailed right to their house, and an 8-shot 1911 to go with it.

Bonnie & Clyde preferred the 20-shot BAR, and the lawmen that went up against them weren't sticking to six shooters.

The transition by most police agencies came pretty late, as it was - with revolvers still being a common sight in police holsters thru the mid 1990's.

Training doctrine is always slower to adapt than the threats faced. Having sat thru some LE use of force trainings, and been an "OpFor" participant in them before - I haven't seen the scenario you describe. Some individual cops may be quick to the trigger, but you don't often get a lot of time to make a call on IF someone needs force used or not.

I agree to your point that administrators rely too much on tools to save them - OC, tasers, batons, guns and they moved away from hand to hand combatives / control tactics. Time & place for all of it - and nothing is 100% effective.

No one likes to say it, but a lot of those policy decisions come down to money in the end - is it cheaper to pay for training and manpower, or is it cheaper to pay the insurance deductible and legal fees when there's a lawsuit stemming from a use of force? Is it cheaper to buy a taser and restrict hands-on combatives, or pay for an officer that isn't on the road because he got hurt in a fight? A friend of mine - a LEO - was on paid time off, then restricted duty because he broke his right arm in a fight with a drunk. Six months he wasn't on the road, but he was getting paid, and part of that was being paid to sit on the couch or go to the doctor until he was healed up & got clearance by the doc for light duty.

We could mandate a lot more training and continuing ed - but that would necessitate even more police, because if you are regularly pulling officers in for training - you either have to have more cops to fill in for those not on the road, or you're paying those training hours in overtime / comp time. And that naturally means *more* money, in a day & age when the loud voices are calling for less money for the police.

 

[Dad_Roman]

Wow. Great thread. Guess Ill throw my .02 cent worthless experiences in.

Great tip above on disabilities.

I drive like a bat. I know I do. Not crazy. I consider it safe but efficient. That being said, probably been stopped 20-30 times in the last 20 years. One ticket for speeding and one for illegal lane change.

When I hit the road I prepare my wallet ahead of time so there is no "reaching" its laying on the console. I also have a badge in mine and the appropriate cards are below it. Lotsa guys here have a badge, mine was for Fire. (doesnt matter much to cops)

My procedure...
Lights on...gently place wallet (in console) on top of dash while slowing.
Slow to stop in safe area, parking lot in city or shoulder on hwy and then 50% into the grass so they have walking space.
Hands on wheel comfortably, window down, light on if night
Respectful greeting
Upon request, wallet flips open to badge (fire decal on back window) and cards are removed
Hand officer cards, CHL comes right back with location question
Polite talk insues, maybe a scolding and thats usually the end of it.

Ok, quick stories.

First as a teen-ager, Pasadena cops watching a new school with a new school zone. 20 mph zone, I was screaming along at 30mph (normal limit). Cop who looked like he just got out of bed with no hat comes over and yells at me if there is some kind of emergency why I am driving so fast. I replied I wasnt going fast I was going 30. Ding ding ding....insta-ticket. (What an ass.)

Fast forward to the last 20 years. Coming back form family reunion, running on cruise down a back road coming out of Elkhart, DPS on my ass. Pull over, began conversation, he was a real ass. I was running 70 on cruise and they had changed the limit to 60. Oh well, cant win them all. Took my ticket and went on.

I will interject here that I have been stopped by dozens of DPS and they were the absolute consumate professionals. Absolutely no complaints (well....one) I actually stopped and changed a flat for one the other day. Was in my city truck. He insisted I didnt have to do this but I told him I couldnt have him all hot and sweaty (100 degree summer day) representing our state.

The other one for illegal lane change, went to pass 18 wheeler, couldnt, dropped back to slip back in and the guy behind deliberately held me in oncoming traffic. After 3 attempts to slow down or speed up......I just changed lanes.....with extreme prejudice.

This brings us to DPS officers in general and presenting yourself as calm cool and collected with proper bon-fi-deeees. I was dressed in slacks, dress shirt and had my badge on my belt. After a short (pleasant) discussion with the officer he said I should go ahead and leave and he would mail my ticket for lane change. Done

A short digress back to the La. statement of they took peoples guns during the hurricane. Yea, I know they did and thats another story. I was there +3. Staged in Ponchatoula and had to pass the blockade everyday (insurance) to go into New Orleans. My personal truck (with lights) and boafides. Everyday they asked if you were armed. When answered "yes" they would say good.

You were politely requested/required to be armed to pass through. The things I saw and the stories I could tell.

Another time

 

[Mowingmaniac 24/7]

DR,

"I drive like a bat. I know I do. Not crazy. I consider it safe but efficient."

You do realize this statement makes you sound...entitled.

I guess I'm little frazzled because I just got home home from a 100 mile round trip and witnessed 3 separate drivers going extremely over the speed limit causing other people to hurry out of their way thinking they were in danger.

Nothing efficient about those situations, but I'm sure the speeding drivers all think they can speed without consequences for others which reminds me of drunks stating they drive better when drunk...yeah sure.