Sig Being Sued Bigly ( 320 Firing on Its Own)

[zackmars]

That’s not an answer because we don’t know what the cause of the ND was. All we know is that there was an ND. That doesnt mean anything is wrong with the gun. The number of lawsuits don’t matter. People can file a lawsuit for anything.

By that logic, we don't know anything.

In a competition, if you ND/AD/whatever, you aren't going to have the RSO make up stuff to take the blame off you. You get DQ'd. You'll probably get asked to leave as well.

And again, this video has been discussed elsewhere. You aren't bringing anything new to the table especially when the other discussions involve some of the people that were there.

There is absolutely something wrong with the gun when one of the most important springs in the gun only lasts a few thousand rounds before the gun slam fires.

 

[zackmars]

I'm glad I didn't buy one a few years back, I was seriously considering it. I'd rather not catch a round in the leg because of shit tier engineering.

The first year they came out, i was really impressed, but held off. Triggers felt kinda all over the place so decided to not get one. Then drop safety came to light.

Dodged a bullet (heh) there.

 

[Havok1]

By that logic, we don't know anything.

In a competition, if you ND/AD/whatever, you aren't going to have the RSO make up stuff to take the blame off you. You get DQ'd. You'll probably get asked to leave as well.

And again, this video has been discussed elsewhere. You aren't bringing anything new to the table especially when the other discussions involve some of the people that were there.

There is absolutely something wrong with the gun when one of the most important springs in the gun only lasts a few thousand rounds before the gun slam fires.

I didn’t say the RSO had to make anything up. The point is, people have historically blamed manufacturers for their own incompetence and the masses have been more than willing to accept that. When we see detailed examinations of the incident/gun in these cases where the 320s just “went off”, it’s being revealed that the trigger was actually pulled. Just because a gun fired after being holstered doesn’t mean there was something wrong with the gun. That’s been happening since before the 320 was around.

 

[Tcruse]

After seeing a side by side comparision of the first version P-320 and the updated one, It seems that the drop problem is not an issue with the updated firearms. Before, I will believe that Sig has a problem with the updated design I would need to see a good description of the events necessary to allow such to happen. Sig made a lot of changes in the upgrade, not just making the trigger bar lighter.

 

[zackmars]

I didn’t say the RSO had to make anything up. The point is, people have historically blamed manufacturers for their own incompetence and the masses have been more than willing to accept that. When we see detailed examinations of the incident/gun in these cases where the 320s just “went off”, it’s being revealed that the trigger was actually pulled. Just because a gun fired after being holstered doesn’t mean there was something wrong with the gun. That’s been happening since before the 320 was around.

You do know that the initial concern with the 320 was the gun was pulling it's own trigger, right?

You are accusing everyone but sig of negligence. If it's between trusting a company known for screwing over customers, run by Ron Cohen, or trusting an RSO running a competition, yeah I'm going with the RSO.

This has all been discussed. You are wrong. The 320 has major safety issues.

New vs used striker return spring

Some comments from FB on the first video i posted

 

[glenbo]

I love revolvers.

 

[zackmars]

After seeing a side by side comparision of the first version P-320 and the updated one, It seems that the drop problem is not an issue with the updated firearms. Before, I will believe that Sig has a problem with the updated design I would need to see a good description of the events necessary to allow such to happen. Sig made a lot of changes in the upgrade, not just making the trigger bar lighter.

The upgrade included lightening the trigger shoe, and several of the redesigned M17/M18 parts.

Upgraded and post upgrade guns have had reported problems. Though drop safety is no longer one of them.

 

[zackmars]

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?43653-New-2-July-2020-SIG-P320-Lawsuit-and-P320-Concerns

A 55 page thread i highly recommend reading.

 

[Vaquero]

Insert Medicare Benefits commercial here.

 

[toddnjoyce]

The first person to try to argue that would get laughed out of the room….

You realize the jury comes from the same pool as voters, right.

From an engineering perspective, everything you said may be factually correct. When a jury says a “design” is unsafe, “design” then becomes the target. The next lawyer uses a similar emotions based argument to sway a jury that Sig has a history of unsafe designs and all their products are now a liability.

Or the “striker design semi-automatic pistol” is unsafe and now an entire class of guns gets liability attached to it, and precedent is set for all sorts of wrongful death lawsuits and next thing you know, MSRP triples, or goes tenfold, or we see what happened to the three-wheeler or lawn dart or aviation markets in the 80s.

Sig could successfully argue a lot of plausible scenarios, but losing on a design claim might just end up being a case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater according to a a jury of twelve retards in a favorable jurisdiction.

 

[zackmars]

You realize the jury comes from the same pool as voters, right.

From an engineering perspective, everything you said may be factually correct. When a jury says a “design” is unsafe, “design” then becomes the target. The next lawyer uses a similar emotions based argument to sway a jury that Sig has a history of unsafe designs and all their products are now a liability.

Or the “striker design semi-automatic pistol” is unsafe and now an entire class of guns gets liability attached to it, and precedent is set for all sorts of wrongful death lawsuits and next thing you know, MSRP triples, or goes tenfold, or we see what happened to the three-wheeler or lawn dart or aviation markets in the 80s.

Sig could successfully argue a lot of plausible scenarios, but losing on a design claim might just end up being a case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater according to a a jury of twelve retards in a favorable jurisdiction.

More than a few manufacturers have been sued over being unsafe. Some were frivolous, some were not.

Yet we still have glocks, Taurus, Remington, and many more that happened before my time. I'll bet sig will still be around whichever way the lawsuits go. Which if sigs past performance is anything to go by, they'll settle out of court, every one will forget except for me screaming all autistic like.

As of now sig's only "unsafe design" is the 320. While modern 226s, 365s, etc have had issues, they don't have the controversy of the 320. If sig designs more guns that are unsafe, and they get sued for having a history of unsafe products, thats their fault. But as of now that's not what's happening, and as we've seen with Remington 700's, it's not even remotely likely to affect other striker fired guns.

 

[toddnjoyce]

More than a few manufacturers have been sued over being unsafe. Some were frivolous, some were not.

Yet we still have glocks, Taurus, Remington, and many more that happened before my time. I'll bet sig will still be around whichever way the lawsuits go. Which if sigs past performance is anything to go by, they'll settle out of court, every one will forget except for me screaming all autistic like.

I applaud your faith in juries.

 

[Eastexasrick]

according to a a jury of twelve retards in a favorable jurisdiction.

The jury may come from the same pool initially, but unfortunately, due to lack of civic pride, and selfish nature of people, everybody with a decent excuse gets kicked, Leaving the pool a brackish mud puddle.

 

[zackmars]

I applaud your faith in juries.

You have a very cynical attitude. At the end of the day sig still needs to make money. So they will make pistols. If they don't want to get sued, they should consider making good ones.

Or if they are that terrified of juries, they could become shut-in NEETS.

 

[toddnjoyce]

You have a very cynical attitude...

I’ve seen liability lawsuits put multiple industries and/or segments out of business; I mentioned three above.

While dated, there really isn’t much new re: product liability.

Product Liability: You’re More Exposed Than You Think

Though the product liability crisis has fallen off the front pages, the problem has not gone away. Lower insurance rates, anticipated by liability law reforms, have seldom materialized. Liability insurance premiums remain a tremendous burden for businesses in many industries. Legislation aimed...

hbr.org

ETA: specifically, keep this quote handy:
“Keep in mind that courts have the privilege of 20/20 hindsight. They’re allowed to tell you how your product should have been designed.”

 

[zackmars]

I’ve seen liability lawsuits put multiple industries and/or segments out of business; I mentioned three above.

While dated, there really isn’t much new re: product liability.

Product Liability: You’re More Exposed Than You Think

Though the product liability crisis has fallen off the front pages, the problem has not gone away. Lower insurance rates, anticipated by liability law reforms, have seldom materialized. Liability insurance premiums remain a tremendous burden for businesses in many industries. Legislation aimed...

hbr.org

Cool. We do a million things a day that someone, somewhere can sue us for.

Either you get on with your life and deal with it as it comes, or you can live like a Hikikomori.

In the end, sig has caused their own trouble.

 

[Havok1]

You do know that the initial concern with the 320 was the gun was pulling it's own trigger, right?

You are accusing everyone but sig of negligence. If it's between trusting a company known for screwing over customers, run by Ron Cohen, or trusting an RSO running a competition, yeah I'm going with the RSO.

This has all been discussed. You are wrong. The 320 has major safety issues.

New vs used striker return spring View attachment 359904

Some comments from FB on the first video i posted View attachment 359905

I’m well aware of the drop issues, and that/their handling of that is one reason I’ll never buy another sig, at least as long as Cohen is there. However, that’s entirely independent of the issue over whether or not the guns are firing without the trigger being pulled.

Sig told him it has a defective striker return spring. Did they just leave it at that, or did they say that it caused the ND? That matters, because that shouldn’t cause an ND like he had. He posted a picture in another video of a witness statement of the ND occurring, but no documentation of what sig said. That’s odd.

I do think sig is negligent. just not in connection to these accusations. And yes, I’m accusing other people of being negligent. That tends to be the cause of negligent discharges.

 

[zackmars]

I’m well aware of the drop issues, and that/their handling of that is one reason I’ll never buy another sig, at least as long as Cohen is there. However, that’s entirely independent of the issue over whether or not the guns are firing without the trigger being pulled.

Sig told him it has a defective striker return spring. Did they just leave it at that, or did they say that it caused the ND? That matters, because that shouldn’t cause an ND like he had. He posted a picture in another video of a witness statement of the ND occurring, but no documentation of what sig said. That’s odd.

I do think sig is negligent. just not in connection to these accusations. And yes, I’m accusing other people of being negligent. That tends to be the cause of negligent discharges.

If you don't understand what the striker return spring does, you probably shouldn't be taking either side.


If the striker return spring isn't working, the striker is still set forward where it can contact the primer of the recently loaded cartridge. Gun fires. Think of it like a fixed firing pin in a SMG.

I've posted 3 examples of issues directly related to the striker return spring, 2 of which resulted into ND's. Do you have actual evidence that it is shooter negligence? Do you have proof that the striker return spring can wear so drastically and not be an issue?

Simply dismissing my argument because "everyone blames the equipment" isn't an argument.

Eta, and it's not an independent issue if sig just didn't give a damn during the design and testing process, and we're witnessing the gun display it's unresolved issues that Beretta, Glock, HK, or Walther, etc would have found and fixed before the first gun left the doors

 

[toddnjoyce]

…Either you get on with your life and deal with it as it comes, or you can live like a Hikikomori.

That’s cool when you not the one that has to assume the liability.

 

[zackmars]

That’s cool when you not the one that has to assume the liability.

And your solution is?