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best 12Ga load for HD?

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  • kfriddile

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    I recently bought an 870 with 18.5" barrel for HD. I live in an apartment so wall-thickness should be taken into consideration, but I want to make sure it still does the job. What do you guys recommend?
     

    Rifleman55

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    I recently bought an 870 with 18.5" barrel for HD. I live in an apartment so wall-thickness should be taken into consideration, but I want to make sure it still does the job. What do you guys recommend?
    At close range #4 birdshot would work, buck shot will penetrate too many walls.
     

    tower59

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    Buck versus field loads

    Hello! (My first time here to Texas Gun Talk.) I stumbled on a great web site that actually tests various firearms against all sorts of targets to answer these questions. Based on their tests, light field loads simply do not penetrate into a man-sized target deep enough and reliably enough to provide adequate stopping power. Buckshot does, as do #4 loads. The problem, of course, is your goal of penetration (into your target) means that these loads can also sail through something as thin as a layer of sheetrock. The good news is that in an apartment, shot will not pattern out into a large area since you will be firing at such close range (likely well under 20' max). So, if you load with buckshot like most people recommend, be sure to truly aim and hit the bad guy. If you load with #8, you can fire with much less worry of actually hurting someone in the next apartment, but you may not stop the assailant with your shot. Good luck-----


    The Box O' Truth #3 - The Shotgun Meets the Box O' Truth - Page 1
     

    Vellcrow

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    Inside an apartment, the Federal Tactical 00 Buckshot loads have a very small spread out of an 18" barrel. I have exclusively used this load for several years in my scatterguns. You will not find a better round to use in yours. Pace off your apartment, find the longest distances you can reach. Even most houses cannot provide an engagement distance larger than 15 yards inside.

    Make sure that the buckshot you use is the standard lead, not the copper plated. The copper plated buckshot does not deform and does penetrate walls much more effectively if you do miss.

    Here is a pic of my 930 patterned at 5 yds (that's 15 feet) with the 9 pellet load:

    Buckshot_5yds_Rested.jpg


    Here is the same gun and load at 10 yards (30 feet...you generally will never engage a dirtbag further than this indoors):

    Buckshot_10yds_Rested.jpg
     

    bonehead1185

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    I recently bought an 870 with 18.5" barrel for HD. I live in an apartment so wall-thickness should be taken into consideration, but I want to make sure it still does the job. What do you guys recommend?


    I am in the same situation as you in an apartment. I have my Mossberg loaded with 00Buck because I have plenty of walls around to slow it down if by some chance I miss. The only place it would be risky is if i confront them at the front door, then it would only be one wall behind them. In any other room there is about 3-4 walls before it would get to a neighbor. I guess it kinda depends on your layout and how you would be placed. I just know that if someone does break in and is armed, I want them stopped and I trust the 00Buck to do it.
     

    txinvestigator

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    A shotgun at across-the-room distances is only a concern if you miss. Aim as you would any firearm. My Mossberg with a 20 inch barrel and Remington Reduced Recoil keeps all pellets on a man-sized target at 25 yards.

    020105moss5003.jpg




    That is 75 FEET! What apartment has rooms that large?

    More realistic distances;

    020105moss5001.jpg



    I agree that Bird Shot is just not reliable on a man.
     

    kfriddile

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    Based on what I've heard here and read elsewhere, it looks like non-plated 00 buckshot is the way to go...thanks
     

    tower59

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    Another option...

    Well, here's another option you may want to consider: less than lethal ammunition. This is certainly not your typical answer, but if you load with 00 buck you really could shoot someone in an adjacent apartment. Let me see if I can find some options...
     

    tower59

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    Less Lethal Rounds

    Ok, I found a few options. I have not personally used them, but I think it makes sense as an option. I bet at the very close ranges in an apartment that you would stop an intruder on the first shot, and quite probably injure him, too, since most 12 gauge less lethal rounds are designed for 5-7 yards at a minimum. So, by hitting him at a likely distance of say 3 yards, I'd anticipate concussions, rib fractures, etc. (That's good, from the defender's perspective.) It would be highly unlikely that these would penetrate very far through walls, and if they did, they'd have very low energy at that point. If you wanted to, you could consider making your first round a less lethal round and then follow it up with a more damaging round if need be. Maybe someone who has used these against a motivated bad guy can comment on effectiveness?

    DeltaForce.com

    AMM-836 - Ammo 12 Gauge ALS Pen-Prevent Bean Bag Tail Stabilized Less Lethal Animal and Riot Control Package of 5
     

    tower59

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    "Gamble"

    I'm with you. Who wants to "gamble" with your family's life? The emotional answer is to clear your home from invaders with a full auto, or maybe a .50BMG. That will stop the bad guy in his tracks, right? ;)

    The tactical scenario is not quite so simple.
    Goal 1: Stop the bad guy from hurting you.
    Goal 2: Stop the bad guy from hurting your family.
    Goal 3: Do not hurt your family while trying to stop the bad guy.
    Goal 4: Do not hurt your neighbors.

    Note that the goal here is NOT to kill the bad guy. The goal is to STOP the bad guy from hurting others.

    The original poster lives in an apartment and is concerned about over-penetration (ie, killing his neighbors). This is a real concern with buckshot or even #4 loads. These pellets easily go through sheetrock. Do you want to live with the fact that you killed some toddler growing up next door to you?

    Another issue is that lethal shotgun loads kill bad guys just as well as they do your own family members. The original poster did not mention if he had kids in the house. In most homes, the kids are all spread out and distant from the master bedroom. So, when you clear the house with your shotgun, you must first locate your target and then identify your target as a bad guy, quite possibly in a poor light situation, and certainly with your mind not at ease. Now, if you hesitate to make the decision, you may get shot. And if you make the decision quickly and are wrong, you could kill your own child. I wouldn't wish that tragedy on anyone, that's for sure. So what should one do?

    I would consider a less lethal option. Clear the house with pepper spray, for instance. If you see movement, fire. If you make a mistake and spray your kid, he'll live. (He'll be mad at you, for sure, but he'll be fine in a half hour.) If you spray the bad guy, he'll likely be much easier to control, or at least, he'll be far less able to attack you.

    Another alternative, as I mentioned earlier, is less lethal shotgun rounds. I do think they'd do the job, eliminate the risk of hurting someone in another apartment, and they are more survivable should you accidentally hit your own family member with one.

    Finally, if you have your weapon out and accessible for ready use in a home invasion situation and it's loaded with bean bags, it's less likely to kill someone should a child play with the weapon.

    If I were in a free-standing home with no children or worried about some trouble outside, I would certainly load with #4 or 00 buckshot. But for many, the situation is much more complicated.

    For your consideration-----
     

    tower59

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    Pepper spray options....

    I think that Fox Labs makes one of the best products available to civilians. Get the fire-extinguisher sized canister, and you can send forth a cone or fog of pepper spray with a larger target area than buckshot will give you. It will shoot as far as you need in an apartment. And the stuff works. It's not as "cool" as a tactical shotgun, but odds are you won't kill anyone with it and it will likely stop the bad guys.

    Firemaster (Fog) Top
     

    txinvestigator

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    I think that Fox Labs makes one of the best products available to civilians. Get the fire-extinguisher sized canister, and you can send forth a cone or fog of pepper spray with a larger target area than buckshot will give you. It will shoot as far as you need in an apartment. And the stuff works. It's not as "cool" as a tactical shotgun, but odds are you won't kill anyone with it and it will likely stop the bad guys.

    Firemaster (Fog) Top


    You also contaminate the entire apartment. Again, if deadly force is appropriate, then the use of less than deadly force can likely get you killed.

    I am OC certified, and I knoiw that I have a full 5 seconds that I can deliver deadly force before OC makes me want to lay down and cry. ;)

    I would NEVER use any less lethal tool against deadly force being used or threatened against me.
     

    txinvestigator

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    Another alternative, as I mentioned earlier, is less lethal shotgun rounds. I do think they'd do the job, eliminate the risk of hurting someone in another apartment, and they are more survivable should you accidentally hit your own family member with one.

    Finally, if you have your weapon out and accessible for ready use in a home invasion situation and it's loaded with bean bags, it's less likely to kill someone should a child play with the weapon.

    If I were in a free-standing home with no children or worried about some trouble outside, I would certainly load with #4 or 00 buckshot. But for many, the situation is much more complicated.

    For your consideration-----

    You know those beanbags CAN and have killed, right?
     

    Vellcrow

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    Note that the goal here is NOT to kill the bad guy. The goal is to STOP the bad guy from hurting others.

    Sorry, you are intitled to your opinion, but I really have to disagree. If deadly force is warranted, then use it. Anything less can cause you more heartache than you want to deal with. Txinvestigator is also completely right in this matter.

    The best alternative, after deciding on which load to use, is to arrange the home so it does not have to be "cleared". Also, ID ahead of time the "fields of fire" and what is beyond them. Responsible home defense requires much more than just the best shotgun load.

    The best advice from a legal standpoint is to barracade in and wait until LE arrives. The firearm is not there to allow someone to act out Rainbow Six in the event of a break-in, but to allow equal (or superior) footing if the situation calls for it. I know that this will not always be the case, these types of situations are very fluid, but a little preparation beforehand can save a lot of grief later.
     

    tower59

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    I knew my suggestion would stir the pot a little, and that's ok. ;)

    So, here again are the goals as I see them, in no particular order. Are any of these inappropriate? Am I missing a goal?

    Goal 1: Stop the bad guy from hurting you.
    Goal 2: Stop the bad guy from hurting your family.
    Goal 3: Do not hurt your family while trying to stop the bad guy.
    Goal 4: Do not hurt your neighbors.

    Here's my question: does anyone here really believe that it is important to kill the intruder, or is it also acceptable to simply stop the intruder by rendering him unable to act? If all you want to do is to stop him, then less lethal options should be at least considered. One certainly has the right to use lethal force in a home invasion in Texas and this is now unquestionable after the Castle Doctrine came into effect, but it may not always be the best answer based on the other desired goals.

    I think planning a response to a home invasion is a great idea. But, how exactly, do you "arrange your home" so that it doesn't have to be cleared? The average home has 3-4 entrances, plus multiple windows, so an entry point is hard to predict. What about your kids? Did your 5 year old have a bad dream and start walking to your room in the dark? Did your daughter's boyfriend sneak in to watch a movie? People have shot and accidentally killed non-bad guys in their homes.

    Let's not forget for those who do have kids in the house, that some kids may play with firearms. (Can you be sure that your children, never, ever, ever, not even one time will touch your weapon without permission? Will you bet their lives on it?) If your weapon is in the safe, it's safe from the kids, but hard to access in an invasion. It's not quite as big of deal to have a can of pepper spray unlocked on your nightstand...

    And still, no one -- no one--- has addressed penetration into the adjacent structures. If you are hot to use buckshot since it works (it does!), can you guarantee that you won't miss? The vast majority of shots fired in combat by cops are indeed misses- and that's with folks who are trained and qualify regularly. What about the average Joe civilian? In the heat of battle? At night? When awoken from a deep sleep? In a dark room?

    Is pepper spray perfect? Certainly not. I certified with it when working for the sheriff's department and we all know it won't stop every person right away. It does make it really hard to use the eyes, though! Today's delivery systems are way better now with fog/cones that will really go 20+ feet. Room contamination can indeed occur, but a little contamination is no big deal if the fog slams into the intruder's face. (Foam doesn't contaminate quite as much, either, if you are worried about that.) I know that I personally stand a way better chance, maybe even an excellent chance, at securing my family if the bad guy has just taken a blast of pepper spray to the face. Pepper spray does not reliably stop intruders as quickly as a buckshot to the chest does. This is its biggest drawback, in my opinion. You're right, Txinvestigator, in that you may have to wait 1 or 2 or maybe even 5 seconds for the spray to work. You may not have that time. This, I think, is the real drawback that one has to consider with the spray.

    Are the bean bags and other less lethal rounds perfect? Nope. You are absolutely right, they can sometimes cause real injury, or even fatality. But they are way safer. I'd much, much rather accidentally shoot a family member in the chaos of an invasion with a bean bag at close range rather than with 00 buck. One way, there's an excellent chance of survival, the other is, well, a trip to the morgue.

    Again, if you live in a home without children and you don't have neighbors sharing a wall, I think everyone would agree that buck or #4 or somewhere in between would be perfect. If on target, it will stop virtually all intruders (at least if they are not wearing armor). But, again, this was not the original poster's situation.

    I still submit that one could make a good argument for a less lethal option- whether it be a quality pepper spray device or a less lethal shotgun munition-not because you shouldn't kill an invader, and not because you can't legally kill an invader, but rather because it may let you achieve all of your goals of protection rather than just one.


    Respectfully....
     

    Vellcrow

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    Here's my question: does anyone here really believe that it is important to kill the intruder, or is it also acceptable to simply stop the intruder by rendering him unable to act?

    Yes, I fully believe it is important to kill the intruder. Why? It is the only way to fully, 100% be sure that the dirtbag cannot cause further harm. I am not just talking about further harm during the initial threat either. Past cases of dirtbags being wounded, and not put down for good, have shown to be a legal nightmare. The intruder can still speak, give his/her version of what happened and even sue you. Not good in the long run.
     
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