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Regarding HB1815 in TX Metro Areas

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  • eriadoc

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    As we all know, HB1815 makes it legal to carry a firearm in one's vehicle while traveling. Chuck Rosenthal, then DA of Harris Co., dictated to local law enforcement that they would continue to make arrests in these situations and then let the judicial system handle it. It is my understanding that the district attorneys in San Antonio, Austin, and Dallas (those respective counties) all did the same thing. With the recent election, Rosenthal's out in Harris Co., and Pat Lykos is in. Does anyone know her stance on this particular issue? I haven't been able to find it anywhere yet.
     

    Texan2

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    1.) the DA can dicatate whatever he wants...he is not in charge of LE in his district. I have heard variations of this story about the DA n Houston, but could never find any Houston LE to confirm it was true. He can opt to prosecute or not prosecute cases, but cannot give orders to LE, nor can he prosecute for breaking a law that doesn't exist.
    2.) San Antonio DA, Susan Reed, has no interest in charging people carrying in their cars who are otherwise not breaking the law.

    It is my belief that these rumors are simply fear mongering during an election year.
     

    nalioth

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    Yes, it is fear mongering.

    Ol' Chuck isn't even the DA any more.

    A little research (this is the internet, you know) goes a long way.
     

    JKTex

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    AH hell, I'll bite.....

    Under HB1815, obviously a person without a CHL, how will an LEO know you have a gun properly concealed in your car? Unless of course you've done something that gives them the right to search, but then you've likely already done something that makes possessing it illegal anyway.
     

    Texan2

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    AH hell, I'll bite.....

    Under HB1815, obviously a person without a CHL, how will an LEO know you have a gun properly concealed in your car? Unless of course you've done something that gives them the right to search, but then you've likely already done something that makes possessing it illegal anyway.

    This law is pretty eay to understand...I think we are making it more difficult than it is.
     

    txinvestigator

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    As we all know, HB1815 makes it legal to carry a firearm in one's vehicle while traveling.
    That is incorrect. 1815 made changes to the Texas Unlawful Carrying Weapon law (section 46.02 of the penal code). It says nothing about traveling, and traveling matters not. It makes it CLEAR that it is not illegal to carry in a motor vehicle as long as 4 requirements are met.

    Chuck Rosenthal, then DA of Harris Co., dictated to local law enforcement that they would continue to make arrests in these situations and then let the judicial system handle it. It is my understanding that the district attorneys in San Antonio, Austin, and Dallas (those respective counties) all did the same thing. With the recent election, Rosenthal's out in Harris Co., and Pat Lykos is in. Does anyone know her stance on this particular issue? I haven't been able to find it anywhere yet.

    The DAs in those counties have said nothing of the sort.

    Link to the law PENAL CODEÂ*Â* CHAPTER 46. WEAPONS
     

    eriadoc

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    1.) the DA can dicatate whatever he wants...he is not in charge of LE in his district. I have heard variations of this story about the DA n Houston, but could never find any Houston LE to confirm it was true. He can opt to prosecute or not prosecute cases, but cannot give orders to LE, nor can he prosecute for breaking a law that doesn't exist.
    2.) San Antonio DA, Susan Reed, has no interest in charging people carrying in their cars who are otherwise not breaking the law.

    It is my belief that these rumors are simply fear mongering during an election year.

    It's not election year fear mongering. It's based on a Houston Chronicle article that came out in 2005. I'll paste it below for everyone.

    Yes, it is fear mongering.

    Ol' Chuck isn't even the DA any more.

    A little research (this is the internet, you know) goes a long way.

    Yeah, it does. Like you could have looked up the article I'll post below, or just posted in a somewhat less sanctimonious manner (and not been wrong). Also, if you read my first post, I stated that Rosenthal was no longer the DA, and my question was whether anyone knew what the NEW Da's stance on it (Pat Lykos). Jeez.

    That is incorrect. 1815 made changes to the Texas Unlawful Carrying Weapon law (section 46.02 of the penal code. It says notghing about traveling, and traveling is matters not. It makes it CLEAR that it is not illegal to carry in a motor vehicle as long as 4 requirements are met.

    From the link on these forums, the law states it's legal to carry in one's vehicle if you're "traveling", no? I'm not a lawyer, and reading legalese is not my forte, but I thought that was pretty clear. Please clear me up on that. Regardless, I think we're generally on the same page.

    The DAs in those counties have said nothing of the sort.
    As I stated in my first post, it was my understanding they had, but unlike the Rosenthal thing, I don't know for sure. I received my info from a federal agent who teaches CHL here in Houston, at Top Gun. So, you know, grain of salt and all that.

    Here's the Chronicle article:

    DA opposed to new handgun law
    Pistol-toting drivers without a permit will still be prosecuted, Rosenthal warns
    By CLAY ROBISON
    Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle Austin Bureau

    AUSTIN - Motorists arrested for carrying pistols in their cars without a concealed handgun license will continue to be prosecuted in Houston, despite a new law that purports to give them a legal defense, Harris County District Attorney Chuck Rosenthal said Monday.

    Although the sponsor said the law should reduce the number of arrests for unlawful handgun possession, Rosenthal said it won't change enforcement practices in Houston after it goes into effect on Thursday.

    "It is still going to be against the law for (unlicensed) persons to carry handguns in autos," the district attorney said, adding that the new legal defense can still be challenged by prosecutors.

    The new law, enacted during the regular legislative session last spring, seeks to clarify a longtime law that allowed Texans to carry handguns while traveling, a qualification that was subject to a number of inconsistent court interpretations over the years.

    The new statute says a person is "presumed to be traveling" if he or she is in a private vehicle, is not engaged in criminal activity (except for a minor traffic offense), is not prohibited by any other law from possessing a firearm and is not a member of a criminal street gang.

    It also requires the handgun to be concealed in the car, although weapons can be discovered by officers during routine traffic stops if a driver gives permission for a car to be searched or opens a glove compartment where a gun is secured to retrieve an insurance card or other documentation.

    "The intent of the law is to keep innocent people from going to jail," said the sponsor, Rep. Terry Keel, R-Austin, a former prosecutor and former Travis County sheriff who now is a candidate for the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals.

    The law, House Bill 823, was supported by the National Rifle Association and the American Civil Liberties Union and opposed by various law-enforcement groups.

    More than 237,000 Texans have concealed handgun licenses. But many other law-abiding adults don't have licenses because they are disqualified by exceptions that have nothing to do with public safety, said Alice Tripp, a lobbyist for the Texas State Rifle Association, an NRA affiliate.

    Tripp said people who have defaulted on student loans, who owe the state sales tax or franchise tax payments or are behind in child support payments are ineligible to receive a license.

    Keel said he hoped the law will prompt police officers to think twice about arresting motorists who meet the new legal presumption and spare them the expense and "indignity" of arrest and prosecution.

    Otherwise, he said, "They basically are going to arrest innocent people and make them prove their innocence."

    Rosenthal and Rob Kepple, executive director of the Texas District and County Attorneys Association, disagreed.

    Rosenthal said the new presumption about "traveling" doesn't define what constitutes traveling and can be challenged in court by prosecutors, leaving it to juries to decide verdicts "based upon the facts of the case."

    A prosecutor could summon witnesses to successfully argue that a defendant wasn't traveling because he was simply "driving around the corner for a carton of milk," Kepple said.

    "I really don't think (the law) should affect how police officers respond in arresting somebody," he added.

    Houston Police Department spokeswoman Johanna Abad indicated Houston police were going to take their advice from Rosenthal's office.

    Unlawful possession of a weapon is a class A misdemeanor punishable by as much as one year in county jail and a $4,000 fine. Rosenthal said most cases are resolved through plea bargains.

    The prosecutor said he asked Gov. Rick Perry to veto the bill because "taking weapons off the street is a pretty good deal." He said his office handled about 5,000 weapons cases of varying degrees of severity last year.

    Tripp called Rosenthal's opposition a case of "sour grapes ... and a threat to the general public."

    clay.robison@chron.com
    The second bolded statement is my favorite of all.

    So at the end of all this, my question still stands - does anyone know Pat Lykos' position on this?
     

    txinvestigator

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    It's not election year fear mongering. It's based on a Houston Chronicle article that came out in 2005. I'll paste it below for everyone.
    In 2005 the law was different and Rosenthal said that. However, in 2007 the law changed.






    From the link on these forums, the law states it's legal to carry in one's vehicle if you're "traveling", no?
    No, it does not. Look up the bill you posted and read it carefully, or look at the penal code in the Texas Legislature website under section 46.02. Traveling is no longer an issue.


    So at the end of all this, my question still stands - does anyone know Pat Lykos' position on this?

    The position of DAs is to prosecute violations of the law. Read the law and see if you think there is ANY ambiguity or room for a "position".
     

    eriadoc

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    In 2005 the law was different and Rosenthal said that. However, in 2007 the law changed.

    He specifically responded to questioning about the proposed law that eventually went into effect in '07.

    The position of DAs is to prosecute violations of the law. Read the law and see if you think there is ANY ambiguity or room for a "position".

    Yes, I know that. I'm fairly certain that Rosenthal did not know that, or rather, chose to circumvent that, based on things from the article, such as:

    Rosenthal said the new presumption about "traveling" doesn't define what constitutes traveling and can be challenged in court by prosecutors, leaving it to juries to decide verdicts "based upon the facts of the case."
    "I really don't think (the law) should affect how police officers respond in arresting somebody," he added.
    And finally,

    The prosecutor said he asked Gov. Rick Perry to veto the bill because "taking weapons off the street is a pretty good deal."
    So to me, it's pretty clear that Rosenthal had an agenda that he was pushing, despite what the prescribed role of the DA is. What I want to know is if anyone has any clue if Pat Lykos buys into this nonsense as well.

    Also re: someone's earlier comment about the police personnel following the DA's lead, from the article:

    Houston Police Department spokeswoman Johanna Abad indicated Houston police were going to take their advice from Rosenthal's office.
     

    JKTex

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    From the article:

    "Although the sponsor said the law should reduce the number of arrests for unlawful handgun possession, Rosenthal said it won't change enforcement practices in Houston after it goes into effect on Thursday."

    Thursday implying that Thursday, that year, 2005. The new changes went into effect in Sept. of 2007; 2 years later. I may be missing something, but I don't see where they are talking about the specific changes for 2007.

    However, back to my question, the one I purposely made complicated to make a point, also from the article:

    "It also requires the handgun to be concealed in the car, although weapons can be discovered by officers during routine traffic stops if a driver gives permission for a car to be searched or opens a glove compartment where a gun is secured to retrieve an insurance card or other documentation."

    Again, how is an officer going to know a person without a CHL has a gun legally, or illegally for that matter, concealed in their car?
     

    eriadoc

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    It happens all the time in Terry stops.

    OK, so no one is going to bother answering the question, I guess. It really is indisputable among anyone in the know that Rosenthal tried his best to do away with firearms in vehicles. All I wanted to know was whether anyone knew Lykos' stance on the issue, and all anyone has done is waltzed around the question, talking in circles. I'll take that as an "I don't know" and look elsewhere.
     

    Texan2

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    He specifically responded to questioning about the proposed law that eventually went into effect in '07.



    Yes, I know that. I'm fairly certain that Rosenthal did not know that, or rather, chose to circumvent that, based on things from the article, such as:

    And finally,

    So to me, it's pretty clear that Rosenthal had an agenda that he was pushing, despite what the prescribed role of the DA is. What I want to know is if anyone has any clue if Pat Lykos buys into this nonsense as well.

    Also re: someone's earlier comment about the police personnel following the DA's lead, from the article:

    He WAS commenting on proposed legislation....that is now law
    That IS political posturing......
    HE is no longer DA....so I guess that should indicate how popular he and hs positions were.

    It is not illegal to carry in your car...so I am not sure how one would succesfully prosecute doing so as a crime???
    It would be no different than a DA saying he doesn't agree with concealed carry, so despite you CHL, he will prosecute you anyway....

    And while the Houston PD may opt to take their lead from the DA....that is their administration's CHOICE....that does not make the DA in charge of any PD in his jusrisdiction.
     

    Texan2

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    It happens all the time in Terry stops.

    OK, so no one is going to bother answering the question, I guess. It really is indisputable among anyone in the know that Rosenthal tried his best to do away with firearms in vehicles. All I wanted to know was whether anyone knew Lykos' stance on the issue, and all anyone has done is waltzed around the question, talking in circles. I'll take that as an "I don't know" and look elsewhere.

    I dont kow what his stance is.....
    nor does it matter what it is.
    I dont know of any DA who has succesfully prosecuted someone for a made up crime. (for the purposes of this discussion) Its not illegal to carry in your car....
     

    Texan2

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    From the article:

    "Although the sponsor said the law should reduce the number of arrests for unlawful handgun possession, Rosenthal said it won't change enforcement practices in Houston after it goes into effect on Thursday."

    Thursday implying that Thursday, that year, 2005. The new changes went into effect in Sept. of 2007; 2 years later. I may be missing something, but I don't see where they are talking about the specific changes for 2007.

    However, back to my question, the one I purposely made complicated to make a point, also from the article:

    "It also requires the handgun to be concealed in the car, although weapons can be discovered by officers during routine traffic stops if a driver gives permission for a car to be searched or opens a glove compartment where a gun is secured to retrieve an insurance card or other documentation."

    Again, how is an officer going to know a person without a CHL has a gun legally, or illegally for that matter, concealed in their car?

    She is right that officers can find guns during "Terry frisks". These searches allow the officer to perform a cursory search of an individual for weapons, and also allow the search of the portion of the vehicle that the person could have concealed a weapon...usually anywhere within the persons reach (wingspan rule).
     

    JKTex

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    It happens all the time in Terry stops.

    OK, so no one is going to bother answering the question, I guess. It really is indisputable among anyone in the know that Rosenthal tried his best to do away with firearms in vehicles. All I wanted to know was whether anyone knew Lykos' stance on the issue, and all anyone has done is waltzed around the question, talking in circles. I'll take that as an "I don't know" and look elsewhere.

    I could start a thread and say that I was reading this book and it said the moon was made of cheese and ask on a public forum if anyone knew for sure. You can imagine the replies I'd get. I could also be hard headed and continue to talk about that book even though the replies I was ignoring were telling me it didn't matter what that book said because it's a fairy tale book written for kids.

    If I continued to ask the question and ignore peoples replies, I guess I'd need to go ask another group of people. Of course, I could contact the writer of the book, but I'm hard too headed.

    If you want to know what a specific someone thinks, ask them.

    BTW, my take, a LEA won't make arrests for made up charges. A new DA won't speak out and say they'd support and prosecute a fake charge.

    I'm also wondering why you're ignoring my question. I asked it to try to figure out why you're asking the question you are. I think a lot of people will be confused about your motivation for asking a question about something said 3 years ago by someone that's no longer in office about somehting that was not law at the time. But more so, how someone in that office now feels about that same issue or why they would even feel it necessary to comment on that issue now that it's no longer in question because the change law is now in effect making that a moot issue.

    I'll repeat for the 3rd time, how will a LEO know someone without a CHL has a legally concealed gun in there car unless that person tells or shows them for some reason or has done something that makes them subject to search, which would likely mean it also made it illegal for them to possess a hand gun at that point.

    And a new question, how many arrests have been made since Sept. of last year when the changes went in to effect and how many of those were prosecuted?
     

    txinvestigator

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    The law has changed since Rosenthal made his position known. I suggest you read the current law as provided in this thread. That is the law, and that is the position of current DA's. There was room for ambiguity in the 2005 legislation. There is not now.

    I'll tell you something else, peace officers who arrest when they know there was no crime and no PC are subject to criminal charges at both the state and federal level.

    It is no longer an issue. :banghead:
     

    txinvestigator

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    It happens all the time in Terry stops.

    OK, so no one is going to bother answering the question, I guess. It really is indisputable among anyone in the know that Rosenthal tried his best to do away with firearms in vehicles. All I wanted to know was whether anyone knew Lykos' stance on the issue, and all anyone has done is waltzed around the question, talking in circles. I'll take that as an "I don't know" and look elsewhere.


    It is akin to asking if the DA would push for officers to arrest for wearing green shirts on Tuedsays. It is inane.

    You thesis for asking the question was a position a former DA took regarding a law that was eliminated.

    As I have told you. The new DA cannot have even a similar position as THE LAW HAS CHANGED!.
     

    40Arpent

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    All I wanted to know was whether anyone knew Lykos' stance on the issue, and all anyone has done is waltzed around the question, talking in circles. I'll take that as an "I don't know" and look elsewhere.

    Correcting your misunderstandings of the facts and laws is hardly waltzing around and talking in circles. Your question is not valid, so maybe you should consider asking it a different way.
     
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