More Thoughts on Firearms Trainers

[CrankyBuddha]

Just curious how you would rate some fairly well known (notorious) firearms instructors...Rob Pincus and James Yeager.

I won't be taking training from either, it's more a matter of curiousity.

-Cranky

 

[SIG_Fiend]

The industry is absolutely saturated with firearms instructors and training schools. Seems like there are still new ones popping up every day too. Considering that, I think the most important thing to consider is, who are your supporting and who are you giving money to? Here are some questions I ask myself when looking to take a training class for myself:

-Who is this instructor?
-What is their background?
-What do their industry peers think about them? (Buddies don't count)
-What do they teach? Is it clear what they teach, or is it vague and esoteric?
-Do they appear competent and qualified to teach what they teach?
-Do they have established performance standards?
-Are those standards realistic?

There are probably 50 other questions in addition to that. One thing I will say is, there are a handful of people in this industry that develop a reputation of "controversy". Some of them even play on that, purporting themselves to be a rebel in the industry, or teaching something revolutionary, etc. At the end of the day, it's all bullshit. Who are you? What do you teach? Is it proven? By what established, peer reviewed and accepted performance standards is it proven? It's really that simple.

In this day and age, with the sheer variety of well-established and peer reviewed performance standards drills, there is really no justification for an instructor not upholding a legitimate performance standard, especially if trying to make outrageous claims about their stuff. Put up or shut up. I'm not interested in an in depth and lengthy pseudo-science backed explanation. I want to know what you (speaking generally) can run with the IDPA classifier. How about the Hackathorn Standards (what the IDPA classifier was designed off of)? What are your Bill Drill times? Ever run the 700pt Aggregate? How about the 1 to 5 with a carbine? What time do you average with a carbine on the modified Navy qual? I'll stop my rant there. This is something that irks me about this industry. It's getting better, but some of the snake oil salesmen still present in this industry sometimes reach quite a large audience by their salesmanship alone, and manage to pull the wool over people's eyes simply with a lot of testosterone-induced chest beating, or else some flashy words and pseudo science. Again, it's all bullshit at the end of the day. Put up or shut up.

 

[V-Tach]

The industry is absolutely saturated with firearms instructors and training schools. Seems like there are still new ones popping up every day too. Considering that, I think the most important thing to consider is, who are your supporting and who are you giving money to? Here are some questions I ask myself when looking to take a training class for myself:

-Who is this instructor?
-What is their background?
-What do their industry peers think about them? (Buddies don't count)
-What do they teach? Is it clear what they teach, or is it vague and esoteric?
-Do they appear competent and qualified to teach what they teach?
-Do they have established performance standards?
-Are those standards realistic?

There are probably 50 other questions in addition to that. One thing I will say is, there are a handful of people in this industry that develop a reputation of "controversy". Some of them even play on that, purporting themselves to be a rebel in the industry, or teaching something revolutionary, etc. At the end of the day, it's all bullshit. Who are you? What do you teach? Is it proven? By what established, peer reviewed and accepted performance standards is it proven? It's really that simple.

In this day and age, with the sheer variety of well-established and peer reviewed performance standards drills, there is really no justification for an instructor not upholding a legitimate performance standard, especially if trying to make outrageous claims about their stuff. Put up or shut up. I'm not interested in an in depth and lengthy pseudo-science backed explanation. I want to know what you (speaking generally) can run with the IDPA classifier. How about the Hackathorn Standards (what the IDPA classifier was designed off of)? What are your Bill Drill times? Ever run the 700pt Aggregate? How about the 1 to 5 with a carbine? What time do you average with a carbine on the modified Navy qual? I'll stop my rant there. This is something that irks me about this industry. It's getting better, but some of the snake oil salesmen still present in this industry sometimes reach quite a large audience by their salesmanship alone, and manage to pull the wool over people's eyes simply with a lot of testosterone-induced chest beating, or else some flashy words and pseudo science. Again, it's all bullshit at the end of the day. Put up or shut up.

Well stated without getting into personal attacks.. Thank you.

 

[SIG_Fiend]

I guess to expand on my point, I'll add this. When it comes to teaching marksmanship, the fundamentals, basic pistol operation and manipulation, as well as some basic defensive techniques....honestly any competent shooter that has an understanding how to teach, can teach this stuff. It's not rocket science. A majority of this stuff is aligning two steel posts and pulling a simple lever. Honestly. Considering all of that, it doesn't take some super "badass", or a former high speed cool guy, or an IPSC GM Open class shooter to teach this stuff (although some of those guys certainly have golden nuggets of wisdom to add). Considering all of that, personally, I prefer supporting good quality, reputable individuals and schools that do not have questionable character or questionable pasts.

 

[gcmj45acp]

+1 on everything said here. I'll add that the unfortunate reality is that this business attracts bullshitters. But, even if you don't know performance standards, you should still be able to make some basic observations. We work (and play) with dangerous tools. As competitors we play a game in which "I'm sorry" comes up far short of making things right after some mistakes. To that end, one can and should expect a certain decorum and respect for the tools with which we work and our clients. Scratching one's head with the muzzle of a gun is a pretty good sign the person holding said gun doesn't respect the tool in his hand, himself, or anyone else enough to recognize the hazards of that behavior. If that's your instructor, ask for a refund and find somewhere else to be.

The industry is absolutely saturated with firearms instructors and training schools. Seems like there are still new ones popping up every day too. Considering that, I think the most important thing to consider is, who are your supporting and who are you giving money to? Here are some questions I ask myself when looking to take a training class for myself:

-Who is this instructor?
-What is their background?
-What do their industry peers think about them? (Buddies don't count)
-What do they teach? Is it clear what they teach, or is it vague and esoteric?
-Do they appear competent and qualified to teach what they teach?
-Do they have established performance standards?
-Are those standards realistic?

There are probably 50 other questions in addition to that. One thing I will say is, there are a handful of people in this industry that develop a reputation of "controversy". Some of them even play on that, purporting themselves to be a rebel in the industry, or teaching something revolutionary, etc. At the end of the day, it's all bullshit. Who are you? What do you teach? Is it proven? By what established, peer reviewed and accepted performance standards is it proven? It's really that simple.

In this day and age, with the sheer variety of well-established and peer reviewed performance standards drills, there is really no justification for an instructor not upholding a legitimate performance standard, especially if trying to make outrageous claims about their stuff. Put up or shut up. I'm not interested in an in depth and lengthy pseudo-science backed explanation. I want to know what you (speaking generally) can run with the IDPA classifier. How about the Hackathorn Standards (what the IDPA classifier was designed off of)? What are your Bill Drill times? Ever run the 700pt Aggregate? How about the 1 to 5 with a carbine? What time do you average with a carbine on the modified Navy qual? I'll stop my rant there. This is something that irks me about this industry. It's getting better, but some of the snake oil salesmen still present in this industry sometimes reach quite a large audience by their salesmanship alone, and manage to pull the wool over people's eyes simply with a lot of testosterone-induced chest beating, or else some flashy words and pseudo science. Again, it's all bullshit at the end of the day. Put up or shut up.

 

[PhulesAu]

On a lighter note, you forgot to include the stipulation that they haven't shot themselves or a student.

 

[Charlie]

On a lighter note, you forgot to include the stipulation that they haven't shot themselves or a student.

Hah! Good advice!

 

[gcmj45acp]

On a lighter note, you forgot to include the stipulation that they haven't shot themselves or a student.

Indeed!

 

[CZ guy]

I've visited with a few "experts" that tout their accomplishments on the range and absolutely believe that perfect practice is number one but I've not yet heard of anyone concentrating one iota on handling adrenaline. I wouldn't have a clue how to do so but it seems touching on how to act in the face of danger SHOULD be of great concern. Is that something that hides in a person's inner soul or can it be taught?

Any instructor that would delve into adrenaline issues would for sure get MY thumbs up!

Why am I even mentioning this? Two of the best shooters I've ever known were put into situations that required bullets to be exchanged and one bad-guy was shot in the knee, the other one was untouched after the bullet bounced off the ground out front.

 

[SIG_Fiend]

I've visited with a few "experts" that tout their accomplishments on the range and absolutely believe that perfect practice is number one but I've not yet heard of anyone concentrating one iota on handling adrenaline. I wouldn't have a clue how to do so but it seems touching on how to act in the face of danger SHOULD be of great concern. Is that something that hides in a person's inner soul or can it be taught?

Any instructor that would delve into adrenaline issues would for sure get MY thumbs up!

Why am I even mentioning this? Two of the best shooters I've ever known were put into situations that required bullets to be exchanged and one bad-guy was shot in the knee, the other one was untouched after the bullet bounced off the ground out front.

The cool thing is, in the past couple of decades, there has been a LOT of study on that exact subject. There's things like autogenic breathing (which originated as far back as 1932), which can help get your heart rate in check and calm yourself down a bit for more optimal functioning. Although there are not a whole lot of people in the industry that deal with some of the more esoteric aspects of all this, personally, I think participating in competition can go a long way towards conditioning a person to act more optimally under stress. I think it depends on how seriously a person actually takes competition, and if they are actually putting a lot of effort into it, or if they're just sort of along for the ride, having fun, and not serious about trying to "win". The single best quote that comes to mind, on the subject of competition shooting, is from Pat McNamara of TMACS:

There are many who believe that competing in the likes of an IPSC match has no tactical relevancy, and it is all just a game.

OK, it’s a game where you are shooting your gun at targets, under time, and with people watching you. You must handle your weapon properly, and follow all rules or be DQed (disqualified). You must discriminate between “shoot” and “no-shoot” targets. You have got to move and make use of cover. You will have to fire from awkward positions. You must find a solution to an ambiguous situation within your skill level.

 

[CZ guy]

The PD I retired from would occasionally put on qualifications that were designed to stress the shooter out. We started by driving down the entrance road with siren blaring then exiting the vehicle to shoot a target using the car as cover. All the while, a range officer was yelling at you to do something completely unrelated to the task at hand.......

Next, after taking our weapon from us, we'd put our dominate hand in our back pocket to represent an injury and run to the firing line where our weapon was laying on the ground and we'd have to figure out, one-handed, whether it was ready to fire. It might require us to insert a mag/rack the slide/clear a malfunction, etc. All the while, the range officer was still yelling in your ear and blowing a stupid whistle. Shooting the bad guy and not the hostage under those circumstances were tough!

It actually was a lot of fun.......after it was over.

 

[benenglish]

The PD I retired from would occasionally put on qualifications that were designed to stress the shooter out.

Meeting Massad Ayoob this weekend reminded me of something along these lines. A couple of decades (or more?) ago, he went through the laborious process of gathering together trustworthy volunteer subjects and the requisite medical personnel to test the impact of adrenaline on shooting. By that, I mean the subjects were actually injected with adrenaline and their shooting performance tested, all while being carefully monitored for medical problems.

I used to have some data on that but can't lay my hands on it at the moment. It was interesting stuff, as I remember.