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Proposal to consider regarding Texas CHL.

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  • Acera

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    A lot of us view the Texas CHL process as behind the times and in need of a change. Texas no longer is leading the way in many self protection issues and the pace seems to be slowing as shown lately in the campus and open carry failures. IMHO.


    Got down a rabbit hole during another search and came across how Mississippi does it, and thought it might be a good way, or intermediate step for Texas to improve on it's current CHL laws.

    Just looking to start a discussion on it's pros and cons. Of course, this is not going to be a good solution for the constitutional carry folks, and I will agree with their position. However, in a state that has a significant number of progressive lawmakers, this might be a compromise step in the right direction that can get passed.

    In Mississippi there are two types of permits. A 'Firearms Permit' which is their basic CHL, and an Enhanced Permit.


    In Mississippi to get a basic permit, called a gun permit there, but it allows you to concealed carry your sidearm.

    Requirements:
    1. Twenty-one (21) years of age
    2. Applicant must have been a resident of the state for over 12 months
    3. Or to a person with a valid out of state license
    4. Or is on active military duty
    5. Or a retired law enforcement officer seeking residency
    6. No suffering from a physical infirmity which prevents the safe handling of a handgun
    7. No drug or alcohol abusers
    8. No convicted felons or fugitives from justice
    9. No mental problems
    10 No violent misdemeanor convictions within the last 3 years
    11. Not prohibited from possessing a firearm under federal law

    Required Documents:
    1. The applicant must submit fingerprints
    2. A full-face photograph
    3. Pay a fingerprint fee and $100 license fee.

    This is pretty basic stuff and an easy hurdle for most honest citizens to jump over. Think the cost is a bit high, but no class required or proficiency requirement.

    Texas recognizes this permit in regards to reciprocity.

    To get the 'Enhanced Permit', you have to have the basic permit and take a class from a Mississippi DPS Certified Enhanced Permit Instructor. Upon completion of the program, the course instructor will issue a completed MS DPS approved certificate. The CCW holder will travel to a CCW issuing location and present the certificate AND their current CCW. DPS make a copy of the certificate and adhere a sticker endorsement on the CCW Permit. No charge or fee for this service. You only have to pay the instructor for the class.

    Now here is where the benefit of the enhanced permit comes into play. The number of places you can carry increases.

    Firearms Permit (the basic one)
    CAN NOT carry in a Courtroom or Law Enforcement Office or detention center.
    CAN NOT carry in Polling Place or meeting of the Government.
    CAN NOT carry at any School, College or Athletic Event.
    CAN NOT carry at establishment or portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises primarily devoted to such purpose .
    CAN NOT carry inside the passenger terminal of any airport .
    CAN NOT carry in any church or other place of worship.
    CAN NOT carry any place prohibited by federal law.
    CAN NOT carry where Private Business displays “NO FIREARMS” signage
    CAN NOT carry in Parades where permits are required.

    Enhanced Carry Permit
    (basic one with the sticker)
    CAN NOT carry in courtrooms during a judicial proceeding.
    CAN NOT carry in any police, sheriff or highway patrol station or any detention facility, prison or jail.
    CAN NOT carry any place prohibited by federal law.

    In a nutshell, if you do the class you gain the right to legally carry your weapon concealed in a lot of places like restaurants, churches, schools, sporting events, places posted by the owner that they are not allowed, etc.



    This might appeal to a lot of different folks here in Texas. The education/class requirement will appeal to CHL instructors and those that believe a class is needed. It's an option that opens a lot of doors that are currently closed to Texas CHL holders. Bad news is it's still not real cheap and no open carry provisions (Mississippi already has that) which is another topic.

    Interesting read here on some questions. http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/MSAGOpinionCCWEndorsement.pdf

    Their enhanced class can take many forms, for the minimum it is generally an 8 hour class, 60 rounds of ammo, and about $100.
    ( Enhanced Carry Classes )



    Ok, have at it, a few things to think and post about.

    Would this be good for Texas?

    Is there a chance this would pass here?

    Do we not need to waste our time on an indeterminate step and instead concentrate on constitutional carry?

    Would you feel safer with a system like this?

    Are you afraid that too many undesirables would get the basic permit if it was so easy?

    Would it's negative impact of CHL instructors income cause many of them to vocally oppose the it?

    Do you think that LE would have a problem with this in rural areas and/or urban areas?




    (Also, this was not a deeply researched post, did not take much time and I hope that the information is correct. I am not a lawyer nor do I have any experience with Mississippi. Got and complied the information from the internet from both national CWP sites and .gov sites in that state. I did my best to make sure it's an accurate representation of their situation. I welcome corrections and clarifications to the content.)
    (FYI, I do understand what 'shall not be infringed' means but we have to work within the laws we currently have in place, :) )
    DK Firearms
     

    Koinonia

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    Texas CHL Restrictions:
     A place of business that derives 51% or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic
    beverages for on premises consumption
     On premises of a correctional facility
     On the physical premises of a school or educational institution (Defined as inside a building, not the grounds or under a covering), any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted, or a passenger
    transportation vehicle of a school or educational institution, whether the school or educational
    institution is public or private,
     On the premises where a high school, collegiate or professional sporting event of interscholastic
    event is taking place, unless the license holder is a participant in the event and a handgun is used in
    the event
     On the premises of a polling place on the day of an election or while early voting is in progress.
     racetrack (Defined as a Horse or Dog track only); secured area of an airport
     In any government court or offices utilized by the court, unless pursuant to written regulations or
    written authorization of the court.

    All marked with* MUST be posted correctly to be valid.

     *on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship.
     *On the premises of a Hospital licensed under the Health and Safety Code
     *On the premises of a nursing home licensed under the Health and Safety Code
     *Amusement parks. Amusement Parks means a permanent indoor or outdoor facility or park where
    amusement rides are available for use by the public that is located in a county with a population of
    more than one million, encompasses at least 75 acres in surface area, is enclosed with access only
    through controlled entries, is open for operation more than 120 days in each calendar year, and has
    security guards on the premises at all times. The term does not include any public or private
    driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.
     Public or private premises conspicuously posted with a Sign that meets these Criteria. (30.06)
     
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    txinvestigator

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    I think the Mississippi model is more complicated than Texas. Adding Bureaucracy just makes things worse, imo.

    I think we would have more success just eliminating some of the arbitrarily restricted places.
     

    karlac

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    I think the Mississippi model is more complicated than Texas. Adding Bureaucracy just makes things worse, imo.

    I think we would have more success just eliminating some of the arbitrarily restricted places.

    My initial reaction also. Doesn't take lawyers long to start arguing over what the meaning of "is" is.
     

    shortround

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    What many of us fail to recognize, is that the promulgation of additional rules and regulations actually restricts our ability to act as free men in a civil society.

    Less Government = More Freedom.

    Me? Empower the citizen with personal responsibility. "Shall issue" statutes were the first step in that direction. Carry everywhere. Flock up, go to jail.

    No law will deter those determined to cause mayhem.

    Laws should not seek to deter bad behavior, but instead to punish severely those who cross the line from civility to criminality.

    The death penalty does not deter heinous crimes, but it surely makes sure the offender can never again commit a heinous crime.
     

    Younggun

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    As to the "enhanced permit" allowing carry in businesses that would post no firearms:

    I am against this, hear me out before anyone flames me.

    I believe I have the right to say what does or does not happen on my property and business owners have that same right. If they don't want guns on their property I will respect that and stay off their property. I don't think we should get a permit that allows us to violate their property rights.


    I also don't the the CCW permits should require so much BS to get in Texas but also realize after a long discussion with another member some time back that reciprocity is important to some. For that reason I could back a 2 tier system. Both with the same rules to when/where carry is allowed, but one with requirements that insure reciprocity with other states.


    Personally, in dreamland, I say constitutional carry with an option for permit simply for travel purposes.
     

    rushthezeppelin

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    I'm all for what that other M state does with their gun laws....whats it.....thats right Missouri : P Constitutional Carry is the way to go, although I'd like to see at least permitted open carry in the interim as I suspect we are at best 2 legislative sessions off from Constitutional Carry. We just have to keep hammering the legislators with evidence from other states that have OC and have not turned into the wild west.

    Also have to say I fully agree with YG on his beef with Mississippi law. We should never be given the ability to trample on somebody elses property rights. If they own the place then their house their rules and we don't HAVE to goto the place of business and can always inform them why and they can perhaps change their minds or not. This is supposed to be a free country and that includes freedom to be ignorant, a pussy, a snob or a yuppie.
     

    karlac

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    As to the "enhanced permit" allowing carry in businesses that would post no firearms:

    I believe I have the right to say what does or does not happen on my property and business owners have that same right. If they don't want guns on their property I will respect that and stay off their property. I don't think we should get a permit that allows us to violate their property rights.

    Yep, absolutely agree. I travel to Arkansas frequently and, being reciprocal with Texas, have made an effort become familiar with their cc laws. In AR they go so far as to statutorily require notification of concealed carry to the homeowner prior to entering.

    I have absolutely no problem with that, and consider that to do otherwise would be an abridgment of their rights, not mine.
     

    CrazedJava

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    I do have a problem with the 30.06 provision though.

    I absolutely believe an owner has the right to decide if they will allow firearms in their business. No issue there.

    The problem is the criminal penalties associated with it. It's ridiculous. Essentially it says if you walk into a business with a firearm you do so with criminal intent.

    What they should do is still allow owners to post a 30.06 sign or something equivalent and if disregarded it is essentially an instant trespassing case. The firearm carrier, if they disregarded the sign, should be asked to leave immediately and if they fail to comply then they can deal with a trespassing charge and the police.

    The result is not making an instant criminal out of someone who may make an honest mistake and if a situation occurs where a CHL holder shoots a bad guy they are not looking at potential criminal charges.
     

    Younggun

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    They have made it so its hard to miss a 30.06 sign and did so on purpose. Makes it hard to say "oops, I didn't see it".

    With all the responsibility associated with CC, if you can't read a sign like that there are other issues at play.

    As to the penalty for a mistake, accidentally speeding is still speeding and you still get a ticket. Accidentally carrying past the sign is still carrying in a place where firearms are prohibited by the property owner, even if it is a honest mistake.
     

    Green Eye Tactical

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    Personally, I'd say strip all laws restricting the 2nd Amendment in Texas. They're unconstitutional, bottom line. Move to Constitutional carry. There are already laws on the books that would restrict people from acting in a dangerous manner with a firearm, just as they do without a firearm (i.e.; intoxicated, disturbance, etc).

    Private property is private property. You don't need a silly sign regulation. Get government out of the way.

    Every time you pass a law to make you feel safer, instead of addressing the core issue- it erodes your overall rights and increases the governments influence over your life.

    Anyways, that's my thoughts. I'm sure many don't agree.
     

    txinvestigator

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    I do have a problem with the 30.06 provision though.

    I absolutely believe an owner has the right to decide if they will allow firearms in their business. No issue there.

    The problem is the criminal penalties associated with it. It's ridiculous. Essentially it says if you walk into a business with a firearm you do so with criminal intent.

    What they should do is still allow owners to post a 30.06 sign or something equivalent and if disregarded it is essentially an instant trespassing case. The firearm carrier, if they disregarded the sign, should be asked to leave immediately and if they fail to comply then they can deal with a trespassing charge and the police.

    The result is not making an instant criminal out of someone who may make an honest mistake and if a situation occurs where a CHL holder shoots a bad guy they are not looking at potential criminal charges.

    If you walk past a 30.06 sign armed you have already been asked not to enter. If I put a no trespassing sign on my fence and you jump it, should I have to ask you to leave agwin before the police can enforce the trespass statute?

    The 30.06 law is reasonable as it stands.
     
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