Staggering different ammo

[GI-John]

So after reading BigCountry's thread on How to keep it ready at http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/shotguns/7668-how-keep-ready.html

I revived an old topic I once discussed in a gun store. There are a lot of scenarios in public. The scenario for this fellow was that someone boxed in his car with him and his brother in it at a stop sign. Only one guy got out and came to hold them up on the drivers side. He sat there with a 40s&w loaded with hollow points. He shot through the door with fragments wounding the would be robber.

My question is this. Has anyone ever tried staggering JHP, FMJ, JHP, FMJ, and so forth? This guy never planned on shooting through his Ford Expedition car door. I assume the magazine feed is the greatest concern. Any one care to elaborate. Not the most experienced but I do not think that the robber is always going to be completely exposed and even if he is you will not yourself either. I need to see some ballistic tests for trajectory after hard surface penetration, particularly JHP & BJHP.

 

[Texas42]

One of my friends has the first round as a fmj as a "warning shot," . . . (not intending to miss, just to make a small hole). I don't agree with the idea, but he does it. I kind of wish I had some car doors to test my ammo on.

I wonder how those bonded bullets work in those kinds of situations?

 

[Big country]

WoW! I never said that. LOL!
I think it's best just to load with hollow points and leave it that way. The HP's will go threw doors and windows at close range and are less apt to go careening threw the target (which in this case is a BG) and into someone or something else that could be hurt or damaged by the secondary bullet strike.

 

[Big country]

One of my friends has the first round as a fmj as a "warning shot," . . . (not intending to miss, just to make a small hole). I don't agree with the idea, but he does it. I kind of wish I had some car doors to test my ammo on.

I wonder how those bonded bullets work in those kinds of situations?

I don't know about bonded bullets, but fmj's, hydra shoks and wwb hp's will go threw car doors and go threw 1/4'' ply wood after that.

 

[GI-John]

WoW! I never said that. LOL!
I think it's best just to load with hollow points and leave it that way. The HP's will go threw doors and windows at close range and are less apt to go careening threw the target (which in this case is a BG) and into someone or something else that could be hurt or damaged by the secondary bullet strike.

Said what? The topic of how you keep yours ready reminded me of the guy at the gun store and his story.

 

[GI-John]

I don't know about bonded bullets, but fmj's, hydra shoks and wwb hp's will go threw car doors and go threw 1/4'' ply wood after that.

Good to know, now all I need to know is how much does it affect shot placement

 

[Texas42]

Good to know, now all I need to know is how much does it affect shot placement

You going to get some kind of scatter with any shot you use, but the idea is that the bad guy is directly on the other side, so it won't matter a whole lot.

 

[dee]

My dad gave my grandmother a S&W revolver to keep in her house for protection and it was staggered with hot ratshot loads and HP's. He told her if someone started to come down the hall in her house just to point and pull the trigger.

 

[Big country]

Said what? The topic of how you keep yours ready reminded me of the guy at the gun store and his story.

 

[wrtanker]

I once thought about that myself - having a FMJ to punch a hole first followed by hollow points. However, if you're counting on the FMJ to punch the first hole then you have to put the HP through the same hole, otherwise the first hole made by the FMJ doesn't matter. In the case of the car door he likely wasn't using the sights so it wouldn't have mattered what the first round was the second round would have made its own hole.

 

[GI-John]

I once thought about that myself - having a FMJ to punch a hole first followed by hollow points. However, if you're counting on the FMJ to punch the first hole then you have to put the HP through the same hole, otherwise the first hole made by the FMJ doesn't matter. In the case of the car door he likely wasn't using the sights so it wouldn't have mattered what the first round was the second round would have made its own hole.

FMJ through hard surface and clear follow up shots after bg is phased. That's what I meant. I did not plan on an FMJ blowing a 4 inch hole in the door.


Here goes: bg aproaching from rear of driver side. He draws and barks. You draw below his vision. Fmj through door, raise to shoulder level with follow up of jhp through glass with clear line of sight and shot placement.

See where I'm going. This happened in Houston in the gulf gate area.

 

[Mate]

Just use a bonded HP, like the rangers (RA9B). The RA9B won the FBI trials and exceeded all the requirements.

I want my gun loaded with the best stuff I can find all the time. I dont want to load a FMJ as the first round, just in case I happen to be in my car at the time the BG comes up. I know you cant possibly know what kind of fight you're going to get in, and, if you do, you'd be stupid to not carry something bigger. But, I try to prepare for the widest range of scenarios. Jack of all trades, king of none and all that. With the bonded rangers I dont really give up anything in the expansion/penetration department, and I gain the weight retention over standard JHP's.

 

[M. Sage]

Good to know, now all I need to know is how much does it affect shot placement

The Box O' Truth - The Buick O' Truth

What happens to a hollowpoint as it goes through a door is going to vary with the construction of the HP, the way the door is constructed, what exactly you hit inside the door, the velocity of the bullet, and probably what you had for lunch. Soooo many factors.

After saying that, though, not all HP bullets were created equal. The newer-gen HP are better at holding together through barriers like windshields (notoriously hard on HP ammo - it often strips the jacket right off) and car doors. A well-designed HP bullet won't break apart and only wound a BG with fragments like you talked about earlier. A well-built HP will keep its integrity through the door and punch a nice hole. This is one of the reasons I like Federal HST. They're known for not separating.

One last thing is caliber. I'm not a big fan of higher velocity handgun ammo for a few reasons, this being one of them. The other is, why subject yourself to "snappy" recoil when you're not benefiting from it? Until you get to about 2000 FPS (good luck with that from a handgun!), extra velocity doesn't help at all with wound ballistics. Big, slow and heavy makes for good penetration (which is where handguns are typically weak) without horrible recoil. It also makes it less likely for a bullet to break apart when hitting a solid object like a car door, tempered glass or a windshield.

ETA: If you want to see the difference between heavy/slow and light/fast, an extreme demo of that is in the rifle section. Shooting the driver side door, the AR barely dimpled the passenger side door, while the AK performed similarly to the .308 with one complete penetration out of three rounds.

Then again, there's always heavy, fast and wrapped in steel with the 7.62x54R they shot that went through both doors with all three rounds. But that stuff kicks hard.

 

[Mate]

Aw, great post by M sage. Forgot about the HST's - great round as well.

 

[cuate]

Dang, I feel for you folks that have to live in those areas where the crime rate is soaring. Been there, done that. Lived in Dallas and Ft. Worth but it
was safer then. Once out near Fair Park in Dallas a slime ball tried to open my passenger door while I was stopped at a traffic light, the door was locked and I popped open the glove box and he hauled a$$....

You have to live where the money is, where your home and job is, and that is a fact of life but the scum bags live there in their areas for the same reason and easy pickings on working people, plentiful dope, free this and that and multiply like screw worns in warm weather. Sad nothing can prevent that.

I "got the hell out of Dodge" a few years ago, long way to Doctors and Hospitals, ditto,grocery stores, WallyWorld, and car parts houses but its worth it, not far to filling stations or post office, beer, and friends that
love firearms. Oh, we have fire ants, but I can't shoot 'em....

 

[GI-John]

Dang, I feel for you folks that have to live in those areas where the crime rate is soaring. Been there, done that. Lived in Dallas and Ft. Worth but it
was safer then. Once out near Fair Park in Dallas a slime ball tried to open my passenger door while I was stopped at a traffic light, the door was locked and I popped open the glove box and he hauled a$$....

You have to live where the money is, where your home and job is, and that is a fact of life but the scum bags live there in their areas for the same reason and easy pickings on working people, plentiful dope, free this and that and multiply like screw worns in warm weather. Sad nothing can prevent that.

I "got the hell out of Dodge" a few years ago, long way to Doctors and Hospitals, ditto,grocery stores, WallyWorld, and car parts houses but its worth it, not far to filling stations or post office, beer, and friends that
love firearms. Oh, we have fire ants, but I can't shoot 'em....

The first time I was robbed was at a friend of friends apt in the complex one late saturday night. Immediately after wards my whole way of conducting outtings, errands, and just generally where I go and how late was rethought and transformed. However the series of encounters my own MOTHER and friends experienced in broad daylight in the respectable communities such as River Oaks at the post office, and stop light on memorial put quite an edge on me. Not to mention random lunatics spraying fitness clubs. Im at the point where I ask to be seated with my back to the wall.

 

[DCortez]

Im at the point where I ask to be seated with my back to the wall.

If I can help it, I NEVER sit with my back to a door.

 

[SIG_Fiend]

Staggering ammo is a waste of time. IMO, it's far better to keep everything uniform and loaded with good quality JHP's. Things like staggering ammo are in the same realm as "counting your shots". Honestly, if the time ever comes that you'd have to use your gun for self defense, you're mind is going to go blank, your eyes are going to bug out of your head, your whole body is going to tense up, etc. You'll never be able to count on remembering which type of bullet is in the chamber, you'll more than likely just keep yanking that trigger until the threat is gone.

 

[M. Sage]

... just keep yanking that trigger until the threat is gone.

As if that's not the proper way to do it!

 

[GI-John]

There seems to be this "one and only outcome" of the victim fumbling the simplest tasks when fearing death. Not all people lose focus as easily as others. Some freeze and cant move, some react fast, some react slow, some fumble, some are skilled quick reactors. The idea is to train and train so that when it happens muscle memory takes over, not processing steps and thinking about it. When your held at gun/knife point is a bad moment to be unsure if you can or can not draw properly and fire controlled shots.

This whole concept of PLANNING on being clumsy under stress is bad for reaction confidence.