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New G2 Research "RIP" Ammo

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  • Brains

    One of the idiots
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    Apr 9, 2013
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    Gimmick or not? Personally, I'll stock with my trusty Hornady Critical Defense.

     

    robertc1024

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    How's that fundamentally different than a black talon? Stupid vid though. I think it might be more persuasive if they showed the results in ballistic gel instead of the spray of fragments from dumping a mag from a full auto pistol.
     

    Das Jared

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    They know its a gimmick, hence the smokescreen show they put on in advertising, and the big fancy words

    sent from Jennifer Lawrence's bedroom
     

    Acera

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    Would like to see some unbiased tests on it.

    It's stuff like this that keeps pushing the envelope of what we know and leading to better products. Not saying that this is a better product, just saying I am glad folks are constantly trying to make a better mousetrap. Who knows, could be the next best thing or just another product like DRT that looks good under specific circumstances and suck under most others.
     

    SIG_Fiend

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    A gimmick guaranteed. With the defensive ammo currently on the market, ammo is as little of an issue as possible compared to a decade ago or two. With the level of durability and reliability as well as the number of good quality gun options on the market nowadays, you basically don't have to worry about the gun either. Anything can fail, but things have progressed substantially in the last 2 or 3 decades. At this point, I would say training and mindset are the vastly more important factors people should be investing their time and energy in, as opposed to looking for the next "magical" bullet. There is no magic bullet that will do exactly what people want, and that can serve as a substitute for a lack of mindset, lack of will, etc.

    Although there is always the possibility for innovation and someone coming along and finding a new, more effective way, I think it's worth considering what has come before to understand how unlikely that might be. TONS of money was spent over the last 3 decades on ballistic R&D, studying ballistic wounding factors, documented case studies of numerous Mil/LE/civilian shootings, the outcomes, and what could be learned from them. There's a whole lot that's already been done. Take even just one example, such as that of the claims of LeMas BMT/RBCD (based in San Antonio) ammo. USARDEC as well as USSOCOM spent something like $1mil on an in depth study of this ammo, because it was being pushed hard as a closed tip bullet with serious ballistic wounding factor advantages. So two commands within the US military spent $1mil, did an in depth study (I believe to the point of metallurgic analysis, bullet cross sections, testing in various ballistic media, live animal testing I believe, etc.). Bottom line, after a $1mil study, they found that the "blended metal technology" bullets were complete bullshit and didn't live up to ANY of their claims. People try way too hard to put too much of a focus on stuff that is meaningless at the end of the day. With the quality of defensive ammo out there now, like Federal HST, Speer Gold Dot, Winchester Ranger, etc. just choose one and move on to more important things.
     

    London

    The advocate's Devil.
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    I'm amused how they try to claim the fact it spins along its axis as unique to the cartridge. It's also funny how they try to claim it saws through barriers like wood, glass, and steel. Yeah- a copper saw blade cutting through steel.

    Basically they are saying you will get PDX-1 .233 results with a 96gr 9MM bullet.

    BS.
     

    ShootingTheBull

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    How's that fundamentally different than a black talon?
    It's different in every possible way. The Black Talon's talons stay attached, so they don't splinter off the way the G2RIP does. Black Talon results in a large fully-expanded hollowpoint with maximum diameter at the deepest part of penetration. The G2RIP's talons shred off, so only a caliber-diameter core base is present at the deepest part of penetration.
     

    ShootingTheBull

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    Would like to see some unbiased tests on it.
    I've asked for some for review.

    It's stuff like this that keeps pushing the envelope of what we know and leading to better products. Not saying that this is a better product, just saying I am glad folks are constantly trying to make a better mousetrap. Who knows, could be the next best thing or just another product like DRT that looks good under specific circumstances and suck under most others.
    See, I agree totally -- while this may or may not be the next leap, I am glad that someone's out there trying to come up with the next leap. And I really like to see that they're working with machined bullets. For more than a century ammo designers have been limited to what can be accomplished by pouring lead into a mold; now with CNC machining they can design bullets that will do things that no poured-lead bullet could ever do. The Lehigh Defense Maximum Expansion is a great example of that; a round that expands to nearly 2" in diameter while still penetrating deeply. It's only possible because the bullet is cut by a machine to perform a certain way.

    The G2RIP is also fully machined and apparently intentionally designed to perform in a way that a poured bullet couldn't. But does it succeed? That's where independent knowledgeable testing should come into play.
     

    London

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    How's that fundamentally different than a black talon?

    The black talon was just a good performing hollowpoint which looked fearsome when expanded. Good for the time, but modern stuff is better. I think you may be under the impression the media gave that "It explodes like a thousand razorblades inside the body," which of course it did not.
     

    Younggun

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    I would never use that for defense unless I had no other option. I would rather have FMJ.
     

    ShootingTheBull

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    Basically they are saying you will get PDX-1 .233 results with a 96gr 9MM bullet.
    My test of PDX-1 .223 revealed that, in my opinion, it's pretty much a perfect, ideal defensive round. A tremendously huge 3.5"-diameter permanent cavity that stretches over 8" long, followed by an expanded hollowpoint that penetrates over 13" and expands to almost 2x caliber. It's a great round, extremely effective.

    But it's also 60 grains at 2800 fps, which creates a gigantic temporary cavity, and sends hundreds of particles of shrapnel into that cavity to shred it while it's at its most extended. Think about stretching a rubber band to its limit, and then nick it with a knife, it rips apart instantly. That's what PDX1 does (and also what Lehigh Controlled Chaos does; that's the ammo test I'm posting today to my channel). It's devastating.

    How big of a cavity does a 96-grain 9mm bullet at 1265 fps leave? Not in the same magnitude as 2800 fps of 60 grains, certainly. The RIP petals should separate and slice the cavity like the fragmenting rifle rounds do, but obviously there's a difference between a single separated petal and a hundred little pieces of shrapnel. Will G2's design prove more effective, or less? Don't know; that's why we have to test.

    The static images from the bare gel aren't all that impressive, but they're using clear gel, and clear gel doesn't represent the damage done in the temporary stretch cavity accurately. Had they used organic gel it would give a more accurate presentation; as to whether it'd be more or less impressive, that again remains to be proven through testing.

    I applaud any manufacturer willing to put in the effort to design, prototype, test, and manufacture a new product. I just hope that the actual results are representative of the marketing materials.

    Again, I've asked them for a box to review. I will put it to the test using standard IWBA protocols, and report back on how the round truly performs. It would be timely, as I'm right now in the middle of my 9mm Ammo Quest.
     

    ShootingTheBull

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    I have a hard time having faith in the notion that a very light projectile that sheds most of it's weight immediately will work
    Shedding weight has never been viewed as a positive factor in terms of penetration.

    However, shedding weight (in terms of fragmenting) is how lightweight projectiles like the 5.56 M193 round deliver their effectiveness, so -- it's not inherently something that should be ruled out.

    Of course, those are rifle rounds, and rifles are in a whole different class, league, division, and pay grade from handguns. Handguns typically don't have the velocities that will deliver large temporary cavities, which can be accentuated by fragmentation. It's just a totally different class of performance.

    From what I can observe on their site, it looks like the G2 guys are going for the same type of combination performance that PDX-1 .223 does so well, a deep-penetrating core combined with fragmenting to maximize damage in the temporary stretch cavity. A lofty goal for a handgun cartridge. Their testing seems to show and claim that they get about 16" of penetration from the base, which appears from their animation to be basically a .355" diameter 48-grain wadcutter. That's not bad; 16" is excellent penetration, and a wadcutter profile would be a more effective wounder than a round-nose FMJ profile would be. But the big question to me is -- does the combination of a small, deep-penetrating wounder and some temporary-cavity damage, outweigh having a deep-penetrating big bullet (like my test of Federal HSTs, which delivered an average size of .521" and penetrated to a consistent 15" depth)?

    That's the big question.

    I believe that bullet designs can be improved on, and that the new capabilities offered by CNC machining may bring us heretofore unexplored designs. I don't yet know whether this particular implementation (the G2RIP) will result in improved performance or not; it's gotta be tested.
     

    M. Sage

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    Gimmick or not? Personally, I'll stock with my trusty Hornady Critical Defense.



    Gimmick. Watch their own shooting of gelatin; the petals break-off petals underpenetrate, the rest of the bullet overpenetrates.

    "...function like a hole saw..." Bullshit. Rotational speed isn't high enough compared to forward velocity.

    "...transferring a devastating kinetic energy wave..." If this doesn't tell you that they're full of shit, I don't know what will. Handguns don't produce "devastating" amounts of kinetic energy. They produce enough kinetic energy to push a smallish diameter projectile a foot or two into an animal, but that's about it.

    A solid copper base will go through barriers good when the front weakens said barrier and then breaks away? No kidding, that's what the Mk 318 SOST was all about, and that was developed and adopted by the military years ago. It's pretty common knowledge that base-heavy bullets tend to be more accurate, too. So much for "a projectile like no other in history."

    This will be a good one to avoid, if for no other reason than the price I expect an all-copper CNC machined bullet to demand before you even take into account the snake oil markup. 5 rounds for $50 wouldn't surprise me when it's said and done.
     

    Younggun

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    Just because it stirs shit up: how bout going to court and explaining why you used bullets with the initials R.I.P. <stir the pot emoticon>
     

    Kennydale

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    Jun 3, 2013
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    I'd be afraid to use this indoors (Home Defense) I can imagine this just shredding drywall and possibly whatever is in the next room. I will wait and see. (Still like my Critical Duty)
     
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