Selling at gun shows

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  • F350-6

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    crewe, you can ignore the sideline conversation here. It's an old debate that's somewhat equivalent to Ford vs. Chevy, or if you decide to get into guns, 1911 vs. Glock.

    Just pass over it and move on. But I see you're still not too close to 25 posts. You can't tell us what they are, but I guess we can play a game to move things along. Are they bigger than a bread box? (Handgun or long gun)
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    majormadmax

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    There's a similar topic on another gun forum that I replied to.

    Most of my handguns I own were bought in MI where handguns are registered. Any LE Agency running the serial number of one of them will show me as the owner. Also any firearm purchased from an FFL will show who and when a particular gun was purchased. Have law enforcement reviewed the archived 4473's from a dealer looking for a specific gun? Sure they have.

    When I sell one of my guns to someone I want proof that I no longer own it. I fill out a receipt, with the buyer's name and date they bought the gun - so I have proof I no longer own the gun if it was found to be used in a crime.

    The other thing I do is ask for a state ID or driver's license to confirm residency status; and I do ask if the potential buyer is prohibited from buying a firearm.youd be surprised how easy it is to figure out if someone is lying about that! On a side note - I was a CBP Officer and during my time I've questioned 1,000s of people; if you ask someone I feel they've been arrested (and they say yes) but can't remember for what - they've been arrested more then once!

    I don't want to put a gun into the wrong hands; so I do what I feel I need to do before I sell one of my guns. As someone mentioned, it's my property; but I don't want the responsibility of selling a gun to someone who shouldn't have one.

    Nope, what you meant was any Michigan LE agency could run the serial number; which technically is in violation of the Firearm Owners' Protection Act of 1986 (FOPA) a United States Federal law that makes it illegal for the national government or any state in the country to keep any sort of database or registry that ties firearms directly to their owner.

    The exact wording of the provision is as follows:

    "No such rule or regulation prescribed [by the Attorney General] after the date of the enactment of the Firearms Owners Protection Act may require that records required to be maintained under this chapter or any portion of the contents of such records, be recorded at or transferred to a facility owned, managed, or controlled by the United States or any State or any political subdivision thereof, nor that any system of registration of firearms, firearms owners, or firearms transactions or disposition be established. Nothing in this section expands or restricts the Secretary's authority to inquire into the disposition of any firearm in the course of a criminal investigation."

    A few things here are worth noting. First notice the use of the word “after” in the first sentence. Any law that existed prior to the passing of FOPA, that required guns be registered, can still exist and be legally enforced.

    Second, don't forget that just because the law says something is illegal doesn't mean it isn't being done or that there is any sort of a loophole. In New York City for example, the NYPD has a record of the manufacturer, model, serial number and caliber of every firearm (handgun and long arms too). You need to have a registration certificate on your person for every long arm in addition to needing a “Permit to Possess Rifles or Shotguns In New York City” (which are limited to 5 rounds among other restrictions). Other municipalities also have a track record of ignoring the Federal Firearm Owner's Protection Act.

    More info on FOPA and firearm databases here: https://www.concealedcarry.com/law/are-guns-registered/
     

    Dallas Hicks

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    Jul 23, 2017
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    I went to a local gun store today to find out what the potential value of a couple guns I have. Add a bit to that number and that's my starting point for selling the guns.


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    cwo4uscgret

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    Are you claiming the Bill of Sale showed where you bought the ammo or claiming it showed to whom you sold it? Because if the former, that would not be dispositive of whether you had stolen ammo from the govt. or not. If the latter, that would only show who your pigeon was, and that proves nothing regarding whether you ever stole any ammo from the govt.

    1. The ammo was legally in the possession of the seller whom I bought it from.
    2. The possession and sale of the ammo was determined to be legal; investigation was closed.

    I chose not to disclose how the seller legally possessed the ammo nor the terms and conditions of my purchase.

    On the other note - FFL sellers are required to retain completed 4473-s on their firearms sales. At the federal level we run serial numbers people registering their rifles and shotguns being temporarily exported to Canada.
     

    TxStetson

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    I went to a local gun store today to find out what the potential value of a couple guns I have. Add a bit to that number and that's my starting point for selling the guns.

    Well let's get hopping. You need 12 more posts so you can sell them here. The vultures are circling and pulling out their wallets.
     

    crewe

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    Jul 21, 2017
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    Gun shows aren't a bad option as long as you steer clear of the low-balling dealers. Remember that most people attend them to buy guns, so it's a good pool of potential customers. If I see someone selling (or even just carrying) a firearm, I check to see if it's for sale as you'll get a better deal on a private transaction that from most of the vendors.

    That makes sense. I've learned quite a bit in this thread and so far, I think gun shows might not be the best option for me, at least right now if for no other reason, I don't know the value of my gun.
     

    crewe

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    crewe, you can ignore the sideline conversation here. It's an old debate that's somewhat equivalent to Ford vs. Chevy, or if you decide to get into guns, 1911 vs. Glock.

    Just pass over it and move on. But I see you're still not too close to 25 posts. You can't tell us what they are, but I guess we can play a game to move things along. Are they bigger than a bread box? (Handgun or long gun)

    it's actually quite interesting. I've been aware of the gun show debate but have never been immersed in the conversation.
    One is bigger than a bread box lol
     

    cwo4uscgret

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    Another "price check" would be a search on Gunbroker for completed auctions to see what is being spent for a particular gun. Compare your gun to the ones being sold and price accordingly.
     

    majormadmax

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    Another "price check" would be a search on Gunbroker for completed auctions to see what is being spent for a particular gun. Compare your gun to the ones being sold and price accordingly.

    Not always correct, some sellers have been known to "ghost buy" their own auctions if the bidding has gone up far enough...
     

    majormadmax

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    Never heard of that! That's ridiculous!

    It eliminates the need to sell a firearm for less than what the seller thinks it's worth, especially if no reserve was provided.

    All the seller does is wait a little while, then relist it in hopes the bidding will go higher.

    Not saying it's a common tactic, but it's been done before and suspected many more times...
     

    Shady

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    Gun sites charge for completed auctions and I am sure they frown on a seller with 100's of non paying winners.

    So they might get away with it a few times and then I am sure alarm bells start sounding.
     

    smittyb

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    Cut N Shoot
    Gun sites charge for completed auctions and I am sure they frown on a seller with 100's of non paying winners.

    So they might get away with it a few times and then I am sure alarm bells start sounding.
    Who says they don't pay the fee?
    Paying a $30 fee on a $1000 auction is nothing if it brings a couple hundred more the next time.
     

    sdismukes

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    On the 4473s... I was told by an FFL that he retains the 4473s "forever" but that when he stops being an FFL, the whole lot of them go to ATF to be destroyed. That accurate?
     

    jrbfishn

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    I'm sure there are those that would do that, but they only have to keep them 20 years. If they go out of business, only those less than 20 years old have to be sent in.


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    majormadmax

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    On the 4473s... I was told by an FFL that he retains the 4473s "forever" but that when he stops being an FFL, the whole lot of them go to ATF to be destroyed. That accurate?

    The ATF's National Firearms Act Handbook (Chapter 12, pg 78) Section 12.7 Record retention period states "The regulations provided under the NFA, specifically 27 CFR
    479.131, provide that the retention periods for required records shall be in conformity with the requirements specified under Part 478. As provided by Part 478:

    (4) All FFLs shall retain each Form 4473 and 4473(LV) for a period not less than 20 years from the date of sale or disposition of the firearms. Forms 4473 obtained by FFLs where the NICS check was initiated, but the sale, delivery, or transfer of the firearm was not completed must be retained for a period of not less than 5 years.)"

    Source: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/atf-national-firearms-act-handbook-chapter-12/download

    So after 20 years it is the FFL's choice to retain the forms. The law doesn't require it.

    Chapter 14, Going Out of Business of the same handbook addresses the requirements once a FFL shuts down...

    14.1.3 Discontinuance of the Business. If the firearms business is discontinued and there is no successor, within 30 days of business’ discontinuance, the FFL must ship the records to the ATF Out-of-Business Records Center or to any office in the ATF
    division in which the business was located. If the FFL was granted a variance to use a computerized recordkeeping system, the FFL must provide a complete printout of the acquisition and disposition records as stipulated in the variance approval.

    Source: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/atf-national-firearms-act-handbook-chapter-14/download
     
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