Lynx Defense

Car chase ends badly

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  • Maverick44

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    Straight outta wiki overview: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_by_cop

    "There are two broad categories of 'suicide by cop'. The first is when someone has committed a crime and is being pursued by the police and decides that they would rather die than be arrested. These people may not otherwise be suicidal but may simply decide that life is not worth living if they are incarcerated and thus will provoke police to kill them. The second version involves people who are already contemplating suicide and who decide that provoking law enforcement into killing them is the best way to act on their desires. These individuals may commit a crime with the specific intention of provoking a law enforcement response."

    I know, I know--it's wikipedia, but it's more "proof" than what you've offered. Or something.

    You say you want to be a police officer. Great. I'm an actual police officer (albeit on disability), and I'm telling you that based upon my experience and understanding, the Atlantic City case was a suicide by cop. Cops involved in such instances can take comfort in knowing that they did what they had to do. They were backed into that corner. And no matter how hardcore you may believe a cop to be, taking a human life is something that wears on a good person. Folks need to be able to file things away into little corners of their minds and "suicide by cop" is just one of those ways. Just my dos centavos . . .

    The legal definition is as follows.

    Police Assisted Suicide Law and Legal Definition
    In this type of suicide, a person intentionally engages in life-threatening behavior to induce a police officer to shoot that person. His/her goal is to provoke the law enforcement officer to a lethal response. This is distinguished from other police shootings by three elements
    • The person should show an intention to die.
    • The person understands the finality of the act
    • Confronts a law-enforcement official with such extreme behavior that the officer is compelled to act with deadly force.
    https://definitions.uslegal.com/p/police-assisted-suicide/

    The strung out fella in the video certainly confronted officers with extreme enough behavior that they were compelled to react with deadly force, but the two other elements are not so clear. Did he intend to die, and did he understand what he was doing? PCP is a hell of a drug as I stated earlier. It can make the user delusional, make him think he's invincible, and cause any number of other effects that can make the user do things they wouldn't normally do. He was not acting rational, and I highly doubt he knew exactly what he was doing. By that legal definition, unless it can be proven that he was thinking rationally enough to know what he was doing and what the end results would be, I cannot call this a suicide by cop. I fully understand officers using that term to help them cope with what they've been forced to do to defend themselves and others. I'm speaking solely in the legal sense though.

    Suicide or not, the officers were completely justified in their actions. I have no doubt that it will wear on them regardless, but I feel they have no reason to feel bad for their actions. They were forced into that situation, and they had a choice of either being killed, or shooting back.

    We are not the first to debate this issue, and we won't be the last.

    https://www.policeone.com/suicide-b...de-By-Cop-Is-it-time-to-stop-using-this-term/
     

    TreyG-20

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    A little excessive if you ask me, but still a good shoot. As for the suicide by cop thing. That cannot be determined unless you knew the guy and his intentions. PCP or not the guy looked like he was ready for the end though. Never done PCP myself, but unless it has hallucinogenic affects stronger than LSD than the guy likely knew what was going on.
     

    easy rider

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    A little excessive if you ask me, but still a good shoot. As for the suicide by cop thing. That cannot be determined unless you knew the guy and his intentions. PCP or not the guy looked like he was ready for the end though. Never done PCP myself, but unless it has hallucinogenic affects stronger than LSD than the guy likely knew what was going on.
    It has some, but not as strong.
     

    diesel1959

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    The legal definition is as follows.



    The strung out fella in the video certainly confronted officers with extreme enough behavior that they were compelled to react with deadly force, but the two other elements are not so clear. Did he intend to die, and did he understand what he was doing? PCP is a hell of a drug as I stated earlier. It can make the user delusional, make him think he's invincible, and cause any number of other effects that can make the user do things they wouldn't normally do. He was not acting rational, and I highly doubt he knew exactly what he was doing. By that legal definition, unless it can be proven that he was thinking rationally enough to know what he was doing and what the end results would be, I cannot call this a suicide by cop. I fully understand officers using that term to help them cope with what they've been forced to do to defend themselves and others. I'm speaking solely in the legal sense though.

    Suicide or not, the officers were completely justified in their actions. I have no doubt that it will wear on them regardless, but I feel they have no reason to feel bad for their actions. They were forced into that situation, and they had a choice of either being killed, or shooting back.

    We are not the first to debate this issue, and we won't be the last.

    https://www.policeone.com/suicide-b...de-By-Cop-Is-it-time-to-stop-using-this-term/
    And every cop going is pretty much calling that one a suicide by cop. /thread
     

    Maverick44

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    And every cop going is pretty much calling that one a suicide by cop. /thread
    It does not fit the legal definition. Just because an officer says it does not make it true. I gave you evidence to my argument from a source that is much more reliable than Wikipedia, and your only response was that officers say it so it must be true? It's pretty clear who won that argument. Now you can /thread.

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    Renegade

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    What a tactical embarrassment. But nothing less than I would expect of NJ cops. Fortunately nobody appears to have been injured by the 50 unnecessary rounds.
     

    diesel1959

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    It does not fit the legal definition. Just because an officer says it does not make it true. I gave you evidence to my argument from a source that is much more reliable than Wikipedia, and your only response was that officers say it so it must be true? It's pretty clear who won that argument. Now you can /thread.

    Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
    What you posted was that source's opinion of what the definition of "suicide by cop" is. It is but one source. It is NOT legally dispositive nor exhaustive. That only comes by a court of law saying such--most especially when a court of last resort says so, such as a state supreme court or the US Supreme Court.

    Also, if you read the very thread from Police One that you linked, you'd see that there is much disagreement upon what is or is not "suicide by cop" and/or whatever other terms they list that it might be termed as. None of them are legally dispositive as you would like to try to assert.

    That man's death in Atlantic City was a Homicide. It was determined to be a justifiable use of deadly force and thus, a justifiable homicide and NOT a suicide. The death certificate would not list suicide . . . however, it WAS (in the opinion of most cops you will talk to), a "suicide by cop". Deal with it.
     

    easy rider

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    LOL! Apparently you can't have a difference of opinion without a winner of an argument.

    Maverick, you win!

    I will try to only use what I can find on the internet, instead of any life experience to add to a difference of opinion when dealing with you.
     

    Maverick44

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    What you posted was that source's opinion of what the definition of "suicide by cop" is. It is but one source. It is NOT legally dispositive nor exhaustive. That only comes by a court of law saying such--most especially when a court of last resort says so, such as a state supreme court or the US Supreme Court.

    Also, if you read the very thread from Police One that you linked, you'd see that there is much disagreement upon what is or is not "suicide by cop" and/or whatever other terms they list that it might be termed as. None of them are legally dispositive as you would like to try to assert.

    That man's death in Atlantic City was a Homicide. It was determined to be a justifiable use of deadly force and thus, a justifiable homicide and NOT a suicide. The death certificate would not list suicide . . . however, it WAS (in the opinion of most cops you will talk to), a "suicide by cop". Deal with it.

    If he did not possess the ability to think rationally, and if he did not actively want to die, then it is not a suicide period. You cannot commit suicide of any kind without being deliberate in your actions. Unless you can prove that this man deliberately attacked officers knowing what the end result was going to be, you cannot call this a suicide with any level of certainty. You can argue against that all you want, but that doesn't change that fact. Deal with it.
     

    Maverick44

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    LOL! Apparently you can't have a difference of opinion without a winner of an argument.

    Maverick, you win!

    I will try to only use what I can find on the internet, instead of any life experience to add to a difference of opinion when dealing with you.

    The personal experience of one person, vs the years of research and study by hundreds of professionals. Hmm, hard choice there. Your experiences are yours alone. They do not represent all people. As I said before, drugs have different effects on different people. Just because it didn't mess you up doesn't mean it didn't cause someone else to go bat shit crazy.
     

    diesel1959

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    A comment in a blood report that states the man had PCP in his system means just that . . . UNLESS they mention more about the dosage in the blood stream (like mg/dL) or somesuch. There's nothing to indicate that he was incapacitated or incapable of mental cognition by whatever dosage of phencyclidine in his system, yet you conclude otherwise. What we KNOW is that he had two beers at the bar/restaurant where the police were summoned and that he had some amount of PCP in his system at the time of his demise. His driving indicated he had control of his physical faculties, and when he got out of the vehicle, he did not stagger. Instead, he stepped out, leveled his firearm, and commenced to throw lead at a plethora of peace officers who responded in kind. Suicide by cop.
     

    diesel1959

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    Yes it is. It's my opinion. But what's fact is that you have no clue what the blood level of PCP in that man's system was. So your "conclusions" were your "opinion" too. And not based upon anything tangible.
     

    Maverick44

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    Yes it is. It's my opinion. But what's fact is that you have no clue what the blood level of PCP in that man's system was. So your "conclusions" were your "opinion" too. And not based upon anything tangible.
    There is more evidence pointing towards my argument than yours. It is a fact that there was PCP and alcohol in his system, and it's a fact that PCP can cause you to behave like he did. That is were I draw my opinion from. What there isn't is any tangible evidence point towards this being a deliberate suicide because that information was never released from what I could find. Could it be a suicide? I never said it couldn't be one. That is a possibility, but I'm not going to call it a suicide because there is nothing to back up that claim.

    If there's nothing else to add, I'd say it's time for us to agree to disagree and move on.

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    easy rider

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    There is more evidence pointing towards my argument than yours. It is a fact that there was PCP and alcohol in his system, and it's a fact that PCP can cause you to behave like he did. That is were I draw my opinion from. What there isn't is any tangible evidence point towards this being a deliberate suicide because that information was never released from what I could find. Could it be a suicide? I never said it couldn't be one. That is a possibility, but I'm not going to call it a suicide because there is nothing to back up that claim.

    If there's nothing else to add, I'd say it's time for us to agree to disagree and move on.

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    I am certainly glad you aren't trying to go into drug counseling, I already know your bias against them. But keep reading, you too may someday write a blog about it on the internet. Your so called expert facts, unless the doctors last name was Leary, are based on observation and hearsay.
    Put out that you are looking to for test subjects to prove that drugs make you think you are invincible and you will have addicts lining up to tell you exactly what you want to hear for the money.
    Talk to an addict one on one and treat them like a human being and you just may learn something.
    I have said several times that what I said was my opinion based on what I have learned. You read something on the internet and now you are the expert backed by facts.
    Nobody really knows what was going through that guys mind as he moved towards the officers and we never will know, so your so called facts are speculation on what you read, not fact.
     

    Maverick44

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    I am certainly glad you aren't trying to go into drug counseling, I already know your bias against them.

    Bias? Absolutely. When there's a choice between listen to drug addicts or medical professionals, of course I'm going to go with the professionals. As for being a drug counselor, nope I would not do good in that profession. I have no interest in listening to a bunch of druggies whine about the drug problems that they created for themselves. I heard enough of that bullshit from that one addict I knew. We tried to help him. Biggest waste of time ever. All he did is inject pain into our lives. The only ones I would have any sympathy for are the ones who accidentally became addicted to their prescription meds.

    But keep reading, you too may someday write a blog about it on the internet.

    A blog about what?

    Your so called expert facts, unless the doctors last name was Leary, are based on observation and hearsay.

    Mostly observation. When a large amount of officers and medical professionals state that PCP users display certain behaviors, that's a lot more credible than a single person's account.

    Put out that you are looking to for test subjects to prove that drugs make you think you are invincible and you will have addicts lining up to tell you exactly what you want to hear for the money.

    And that's why they most likely don't test like that.

    Talk to an addict one on one and treat them like a human being and you just may learn something.

    Tried it, didn't turn out well as I said before. I treat them like a human beings none the less, but I learned plenty already.

    I have said several times that what I said was my opinion based on what I have learned. You read something on the internet and now you are the expert backed by facts.

    Nope, I said other people are the experts backed by facts. I just used those facts in my argument.

    Nobody really knows what was going through that guys mind as he moved towards the officers and we never will know, so your so called facts are speculation on what you read, not fact.

    As I said in my last post, there is far more evidence supporting the argument that he was drugged out of his mind than the argument that he deliberately committed suicide. But keep on making that argument.
     
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