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Any thoughts on this Vets point of view on "good guy with a gun"?

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  • Noggin

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    Speaking as someone with 20+ years of military service, what annoyed me about this article was the writers assumption that any "civilian" of any age must lack the necessary skill and mindset to act in crisis situation. Psychological studies along with evidence from actual incidents have proven that when the use of lethal force is required not all military pers and LEOs have the mental ability to "take the shot" on the other hand there are plenty of cases where civilians with no formal training have done so to defend themselves/family/friends. Some people are just born with the warrior mindset. The military invests a lot of time and effort trying to create that ability among it's recruits because history has proven it cannot be taken for granted.
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    Noggin

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    I believe the author is playing into the gun grabbers hands with what he says. First of all, I believe he was exaggerating the "thousands of hours". Certainly basic training is grueling, but I have to doubt thousands of hours are spent in firearms training alone and certainly not law enforcement. .

    I wondered about that also. Now I realise that Basic Military training varies from country to country. Furthermore those going into the infantry, marines, airborne etc spend more time on small arms training than those going into artillery, sappers etc. Now generally basic military training for combat branches is going to be somewhere in the range of 17 to 22 weeks. Now some of that time is spent in the field where training is a 24 hour activity but most of it will be on base where the days may be long and demanding but the actual time spent under actual instruction (not cleaning barracks/equipment/uniforms etc) is probably around 9 hours per day. So to average it out over the 20+ weeks lets call it 11 hours per day. Furthermore let us assume a 7 day work week for the whole training cycle.
    So 1000hours divided by 11hour days produces 90.9 training day divide that by 7day weeks and you get 12.9 weeks. Therefore 13 weeks out of 22 just spent on small arms training; does not leave much for navigation, first aid, drill, tactics, field craft & camo, radios etc etc,

    Over the course of several years of military service a soldier might easily log 1000s of hours of small arms training but he/she will almost certainly be sent on an operational deployment before reaching that number. Thus his argument still fails as the military do not require 1000s of hours of small arms training as a prerequisite for going to war.
     

    kenboyles72

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    When I went into the Army in '91, we prolly had about 48 hrs of actual hands on firing, this was during basic and AIT. Now total training would be 3 times that, that includes safety, handling, tear down, cleaning etc... At the range, each group would fire for about an hour then rotate, not much of a firearm experience. Depending on MOS, one would get more fire time during AIT. If one's MOS was medic, office work, etc, fire time would be zilch. So seeing that this ex military was a leftist snowflake, I'm quit positive he wouldn't take a job being under direct fire, instead take a cozy clerical job, so his input is null and void.
     
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    C_Hallbert

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    When I went into the Army in '91, we prolly had about 48 hrs of actual hands on firing, this was during basic and AIT. Now total training would be 3 times that, that includes safety, handling, tear down, cleaning etc... At the range, each group would fire for about an hour then rotate, not much of a firearm experience. Depending on MOS, one would get more fire time during AIT. If one's MOS was medic, office work, etc, fire time would be zilch. So seeing that this ex Marine was a leftist snowflake, I'm quit positive he wouldn't take a job being under direct fire, instead take a cozy clerical job, so his input is null and void.

    Look again at the heading of the article after you open the link. It say this US Army Veteran.......



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    GeorgeandSugar

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    Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
    No matter how wrong that opinion may be...


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    Yep, we are entitled to our opinions. The problem is our opinions on the 2A are seldom advertised or portrayed on the major news network. When you read about the instantaneous of an armed citizen thwarting a criminal you seldom, if ever hear about it in the main stream media. What we do hear more is the anti-gun narrative which is back-up with suspect facts and full of emotional pleas.


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    Wildcat Diva

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    If he assumes so much about “young men” who carry, I hate to see what his interpretations are concerning an old woman who carries.
     

    austinbirdnut

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    Good, Im glad you were just as pissed as I was. I was not in the military but Im glad a veteran voiced an opinion. Just wanted everyone to note the author too :)

    And I really cant stand the pedestal this ******* places himself upon. Just because you did your four years or whatever doesnt make you any better than johnny jerkoff who goes to the range and trains his heart out every week, month etc. Getting yelled at for a few months, slapping on a beret and kicking boxes for a few years doesn't make you the resident professional on firearms or combat.

    Now if this guy is some ricky recon, MOH recipient or combat veteran, then I guess he knows something but his opinion is still complete horseshit. My only question to him or her or whatever the **** it is, is that what would you rather have, a fighting chance against an armed shooter as an untrained or undertrained LTC holder? Or would you rather die like a sheep since you cant possibly shoot someone unless you have gone to rifle qual once a year for four years in the military?

    And so no one gets upset, I was in the USMC but I have no illusions as to what my experience in the military has or hasn't given me.

    So I know everything you nasty civilians :usflag:
     
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    MTA

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    Good, Im glad you were just as pissed as I was. I was not in the military but Im glad a veteran voiced an opinion. Just wanted everyone to note the author too :)

    Yea np man. I hate people like him because I know people like him. He cant even figure out what he is but he will talk down to civilians just because they didnt go to camp cupcake for a few months of infantry school. Supposedly that makes you a CIB wearing badass. But in his case, he was stationed in D.C. for a few years and then washed out of West Point due to an "illness". My guess is it was too hard so he pulled a bruce jenner and got kicked out.

    I want to write what I really think about him but I won't since I like being on this forum lol
     

    F350-6

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    I think the guy's a friggin idiot.



    ......Good guy with a gun doesn't work even though the last big shooting was stopped by a good guy with a gun......

    ......I'm better and more qualified than all of you since I've had Army training....... (no offense to Noggin)

    What a friggin idiot. My opinion based on past experience as USMC - 0311 with SOC certification every year. But I'm not a writer so what do I know.
     

    easy rider

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    I'd take the word of a veteran that had a few months in battle over someone with years of training stateside.
     

    NavyVet1959

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    "Charles Clymer is a genderqueer Army veteran and writer based in Washington, D.C."

    I dont need some mentally ill freak telling me anything.

    Exactly... Too bad it wasn't at the top of the article so I could have saved myself from reading the rantings of some mentally deranged fag that I wouldn't piss on if he was on fire.
     
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    Ole Cowboy

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    When I went into the Army in '91, we prolly had about 48 hrs of actual hands on firing, this was during basic and AIT. Now total training would be 3 times that, that includes safety, handling, tear down, cleaning etc... At the range, each group would fire for about an hour then rotate, not much of a firearm experience. Depending on MOS, one would get more fire time during AIT. If one's MOS was medic, office work, etc, fire time would be zilch. So seeing that this ex military was a leftist snowflake, I'm quit positive he wouldn't take a job being under direct fire, instead take a cozy clerical job, so his input is null and void.

    Having gone thru basic in prep for GOING to war, Vietnam, FT Polk La, Jan '67. Certainly long, hard arduous training. In that training there is a LOT of hurry up and wait or concurrent training going on. We did not spend 1000's or even hundreds of hours shooting our M 14's.

    In fact the prime focus in Basic is physical and mental prep for your time in the Army and if you are going to fight. You have to understand what the typical soldier looks like on day on...what is typical is that they are untypical: Fat, thin, weak, strong, smart and dumb with everything in between. Cannot march, which by the day you spend a LOT of hours learning to march the only guys that had an edge on that was kids that were in the band at school.

    I came in at 6'2", 121 lbs, a few months later I was headed to Vietnam, at almost 6'3", 206 lbs. I had gone from a 28/35 size in Levis 501's when I came in to a 26/36 size, but my legs were so big I had to buy 32/36 Levis to get my legs in the jeans, then have the waist cut down.

    As for shooting, you learn to zero your M 14 and to shoot at various distances out to 300M. They start out by breaking us into 2 groups, those who had experience shooting a rifle and those who had never shot... About half the days we went to the range we marched, leaving at 0500 and arriving at 0700, eating chow then training.

    I will tell you the actual time I spent with that M 14 in a live fire mode is measured in a few hours. Zero, static target firing at various ranges, then shoot and move lanes, then qualify for record.

    Retired Infantry 67-94
     

    Time On Target

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    Lunyfringe, I agree the 2nd amendment was there because the founding fathers feared the government that they had founded. They also were not really that fond of a standing army because of how they knew it could be misused and at that time in history were confident that having a trained civilian population and ocean barriers would allow them time to give those civilians the training.

    Well the ocean barrier isn't what it once was but the trained civilian population is still a deterring force to bad guys both inside and outside of the government. I appreciate his service but that doesn't mean that the author is someone that I have to listen to or immediately bow down to his opinion. You know what they say about opinions and rear ends everyone has one and most of the time both smell.

    When I was competitive shooting, we had law enforcement officers shoot with us at times. Guess what, they were the worst shooter in the whole group, because their gun training and range time was a fraction of what we all had. I would say from volunteering and helping with the local police force that gun training is only 10 - 15% of their training time due to the complexity of their job. I still have ten times the training and range time that the officers that I help have, that inspite of our organization donating a lot of ammo to the force.

    I don't know what the current armed forces consume in ammo now, but my cousin who retired Special Forces after 20 years in stated that right after Vietnam he wouldn't trust any of the Army infantry around him with live ammo. They just didn't get the training necessary due to cost cutting, I imagine it has greatly improved from then but still is Army training better than what is available outside of the Army and are we going to station Army and Police personnel at every corner, if not then a armed and trained civilian is still the best deterring force out there for fast response.
     

    M&P9_Rich

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    Good guys with guns have been stopping bad guys with guns since gunpowder was first invented. Yes, many of those good guys were trained military fighters but many were also relatively untrained civilians. Anyone arguing against that fact is merely opening his mouth and proving himself a fool.
     

    Ole Cowboy

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    Ah - only one stripe in your pajamas, turn sideways & stick out your tongue, you look like a zipper, drink a red soda pop & you look like a thermometer - yeah, I was that guy too.
    When I came back from the DMZ in Vietnam in '68 and from DMZ in Korea in '79 I weighed the same at 147 lbs...combat weight...
     
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