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  • thequintessentialman

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    Manual bolt seems to be action of choice for long range accuracy but why? I can see it as more reliable but what are the other advantages over a gas or other type action?

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    Younggun

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    It's easier to make a bolt gun accurate and you're COAL isn't limited by mag length.
     

    Dawico

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    Basically a bolt gun is a simpler machine.

    Putting a gas tube on a barrel screws with harmonics. Then you also have a big spring slamming the action closed every shot. You have no control over the movement.

    It is hard to make a stiff and tight action if the parts have to move themselves.

    Autoloaders tend not to work well with rounds that are tight in the chamber or close to the rifling too. This is a big advantage while trying to squeeze those last few hundredths out of a group.

    I also find that I shoot an autoloader faster because it is so easy. This never helps group size.

    I have seen and owned some very accurate autoloaders but they just can't compete with my bolt guns. Both are usually more accurate than the shooter though.
     

    Dawico

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    I think a lever gun could compare to a bolt gun in accuracy but nobody really persues it.

    Single shots are either bolt guns or based on a single hinge design which is inherently weak. All the stress is put on the hinge which is on one side of the action. This induces flex on the system which is not conducive to an accurate rifle.
     

    benenglish

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    I also find that I shoot an autoloader faster because it is so easy. This never helps group size.
    I dunno. 5 shots in 20 seconds at 600 yards resulting in a group of 0.349" seems both fast and accurate to me. (The actual shooting demo starts at 2:28. The first part is interesting tech stuff).

    And then there are those highly competitive 1000-yard shooters who regularly put 10 shots into a group you can cover with your hand in under 30 seconds.

    As for the OP's question, in the benchrest world the competitors will spend whatever it takes to win. They have no qualms about dumping equipment they love if something works even a little bit better. If any sort of action could be made to shoot more accurately than a bolt, the benchrest world would adopt it immediately.
     

    benenglish

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    Here's a straight pull, bottom bolt, bottom eject gun.
    That brings up an interesting point regarding the usefulness of tensioned barrels vs. tuners to dampen vibration. Tensioned barrels are kind of a brute force approach but have worked very well for some people. I think most benchresters are using tuners, though.

    ETA - When I say that using a tensioned barrel is a sort of brute force method to control barrel vibrations, I'm not disparaging that approach. Heck, I love my Dan Wesson revolver because it takes exactly that approach and I find it wonderfully accurate.

    But in case anybody doesn't really know what I'm talking about, here's a picture of a benchrest rifle where the barrel is surrounded by a larger shroud enabling the barrel to be put substantially in tension, thus reducing barrel vibrations. This kinda looks like "brute force", doesn't it?

    eJnLb2n.jpg
     
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    outdare

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    Sorry for the thread jack. Do long range shooters really use those gun chassis? Seems that it takes the human element out of the equation.

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    benenglish

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    Do long range shooters really use those gun chassis? Seems that it takes the human element out of the equation.
    What do you mean by "chassis"? In all the videos thus far posted, the rifles are just rifles. The barrels are heavy and the stocks pretty massive, but they're just well-made rifles. They're all being shot from atop well-made, well-designed sandbag rests at both front and rear.

    So, what "chassis"? I know the term is nowadays applied by the tacticool crowd to aluminum stocks but I'm not sure how you're using it.

    ETA - The only thing in the benchrest world that I'd think warranted the term "chassis" are heavy rail guns using one-piece return-to-battery rests. But even in those cases, the human element isn't reduced. It becomes even more important. If everybody has a rifle capable of shooting groups "in the zeroes", then the ability of the shooter to judge conditions becomes the difference between winning and losing. Those guys have to be able to look at their wind flags and know if the wind changed by a couple of MPH or changed direction by a few degrees. It's less about trigger control and more about condition reading but it's still a difficult test of the skill of the operator above all else.

    Here's a vid of some of those sorts of rifles:

     
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    TheDan

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    I dunno. 5 shots in 20 seconds at 600 yards resulting in a group of 0.349" seems both fast and accurate to me. (The actual shooting demo starts at 2:28. The first part is interesting tech stuff).

    And then there are those highly competitive 1000-yard shooters who regularly put 10 shots into a group you can cover with your hand in under 30 seconds.

    As for the OP's question, in the benchrest world the competitors will spend whatever it takes to win. They have no qualms about dumping equipment they love if something works even a little bit better. If any sort of action could be made to shoot more accurately than a bolt, the benchrest world would adopt it immediately.
    I've never been interested in that type of shooting, but it is interesting. It seems like the rest is just as important as the gun; it's all one system.

    heavy rail guns using one-piece return-to-battery rests
    That's porn for machining enthusiasts.
     

    Younggun

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    I can say that the chassis systems usually seen do nothing to remove the shooter from the equation.

    They are made to prevent the stock from ever changing the tension in the receiver or effecting the barrel.

    I have a 40lb rifle in a factory chassis on a rigid bipod and monopod. It still moves when I lean on it and the weight of the rifle does a lot more to remove my mistakes from the equation than anything else.
     

    outdare

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    Sorry my misuse of terminology. The lead sled? Or contraption that is holding the rifle in place. Why not just go full robotic like off the movie jackal?

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    Younggun

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    Sorry my misuse of terminology. The lead sled? Or contraption that is holding the rifle in place. Why not just go full robotic like off the movie jackal?

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    I hate those lead sled things, don't shoot worth a damn from them.
     

    TheEnglishman

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    If anyone is interested check out stangskyting on YouTube. It's Norwegian speed shooting using bolt action rifles and I believe only iron sights
     

    benenglish

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    Sorry my misuse of terminology. The lead sled?
    Oh, those. Well, I don't like those but I can see why some people use them for heavy recoiling rifles.

    The fact remains, though, that all the videos posted prior to your first question were of rifles shooting off plain old front and rear sandbags. They're really nice front and rear sandbags, I admit, but they're still just sandbags.

    If you're seeing the way the rifles recoil straight back and are then just pushed by the shooter back to the exact same place, then don't confuse that with any sort of mechanism. (The exception, of course, are the return-to-battery rests I previously pointed out.) When you see a rifle behave like that, recoiling straight back and easily pushed right back to the same position for the next shot, you're not seeing any sort of chassis at work. You're merely seeing good benchrest technique.

    Properly set up, a front rest topped with a sandbag and a rear sandbag will allow a rifle with a properly configured stock to move on a perfectly repeatable line in recoil and be perfectly repositioned back into the starting position with almost no effort.

    It amazes me how many people shoot off a benchrest for a zero or to work up a load but then sabotage their own efforts by not understanding how to use sandbags. The guys in those videos just know how to use sandbags.
     

    outdare

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    Oh, those. Well, I don't like those but I can see why some people use them for heavy recoiling rifles.

    The fact remains, though, that all the videos posted prior to your first question were of rifles shooting off plain old front and rear sandbags. They're really nice front and rear sandbags, I admit, but they're still just sandbags.

    If you're seeing the way the rifles recoil straight back and are then just pushed by the shooter back to the exact same place, then don't confuse that with any sort of mechanism. (The exception, of course, are the return-to-battery rests I previously pointed out.) When you see a rifle behave like that, recoiling straight back and easily pushed right back to the same position for the next shot, you're not seeing any sort of chassis at work. You're merely seeing good benchrest technique.

    Properly set up, a front rest topped with a sandbag and a rear sandbag will allow a rifle with a properly configured stock to move on a perfectly repeatable line in recoil and be perfectly repositioned back into the starting position with almost no effort.

    It amazes me how many people shoot off a benchrest for a zero or to work up a load but then sabotage their own efforts by not understanding how to use sandbags. The guys in those videos just know how to use sandbags.
    I see the rail gun setups in the video. Not a lot of human interactions. Set it up to auto feed and remote trigger and you can stay at home and shoot remotely. Not sure how much skill in involved except with setup. I would imagine your reloading skill would mean more than any shooting experience you have. All the videos have the gun resting in a cradle for the front and a rest in the back. Is there a bipod class? Or prone class of contest? This just looks extremely expensive if your not a machinist. Thanks Ben for posting this up. As you can tell I have little to no experience with style of shooting. My comments are based on trying to learn the in and outs of the sport. I'm not trying to bash or degrade in any way. I guess I imagined people shooting the old fashion way of holding the rifle at these challenges.

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    benenglish

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    It seems like the rest is just as important as the gun; it's all one system.
    Bingo. Nobody wins a benchrest match unless they know how to use sandbags.
    That's porn for machining enthusiasts.
    I guess so. There are many long videos on YT showing a benchrest rifle being made. They're weak sauce compared to the few YT vids that show the building of a rail gun. If somebody wants "porn for machining enthusiasts", those are the vids to watch.
     

    benenglish

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    I see the rail gun setups in the video. Not a lot of human interactions. Set it up to auto feed and remote trigger and you can stay at home and shoot remotely. Not sure how much skill in involved except with setup.
    No, you've got the wrong idea.

    Those are rifles that can shoot in "the zeroes", with the maximum center-to-center measurement of the group being 0.099" or less. 5-shot groups frequently look like a single bullet hole, slightly frayed. At that level of mechanical accuracy, the slightest change in wind speed or direction can add a tenth of an inch to the size of a group. That's the difference between winning and being pretty much at the bottom of the list of participant results.

    Yes, the ability to hold the rifle is removed. Trigger control is less important, though you can still screw up with a bad trigger yank. But reading conditions is everything, a very tough skill, and something worthy of the trophies given away at the end of these matches.

    Oddly enough, I think of it kind of like I think of Palma matches. In those, it's generally accepted that the rifleman is responsible for elevation errors but the spotter is responsible for windage errors. Heavy benchrest shooting is like being a Palma spotter; if you can't read conditions, you're SOL.
    All the videos have the gun resting in a cradle for the front and a rest in the back.
    You say cradle. I say sandbags. We're both right. Except in the most experimental class and in (again, iirc) rimfire BR, the rules require a sandbag so there is one between the rifle and the front rest.
    I would imagine your reloading skill would mean more than any shooting experience you have.
    Reloading means a lot, for sure. They do it right there at the range, sometimes tuning loads for the conditions. I don't think that means more than shooting experience though since some successful benchresters find reloading on site to be an unneeded mental distraction. So things go both ways.
    Is there a bipod class? Or prone class of contest?
    IIRC, there was an experiment with an AR-centric class that used bipods. I've been away for too long to know if it survives. I do know there are several smaller benchrest matches that use bipods but I don't know about anything with world wide participation and sanction like is shown in the videos. If anybody has info on such a thing, I'd love to hear about it.

    As for a prone class, absolutely. It's called F-Class and it's a big deal. It's also colloquially known as "belly benchrest." :) And there are F-Class classes (F-TR) where bipods are used, too.
    I'm not trying to bash or degrade in any way.
    I see nothing you've posted as bashing in any way. You're just asking some (very good) questions. I like that.
    I guess I imagined people shooting the old fashion way of holding the rifle at these challenges.
    Oh, that exists, too, in a hundred variations. Obviously, it doesn't fall under the classification of "benchrest" but there are off-hand and supported off-hand rifle matches of every type you can imagine.

    I find the diversity of the shooting sports in the U.S. to be a wonderful thing to ponder. If I've exposed you to something you hadn't seen before, even if it doesn't float your boat, that's a good thing. It's always good to re-remember that there are more shooters out there doing more and more different types of shooting than most of us could ever imagine.

    There's something for everyone in shooting.
     
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