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  • benenglish

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    I sure as heck don't want California auditors in here poking around...
    Well, that precedent was set a long time ago. Before 1996, when the problem was fixed by federal source tax legislation, California forced anyone receiving a pension from a California entity to pay income taxes in California. Period. It didn't matter where you lived.

    I'm not sure about the nuts and bolts of enforcement but there was a time that if you worked a long career in California as a teacher or state government employee, retired, and drew a pension, you still had to pay California income taxes no matter where you moved. While that has been changed for over 20 years (if you earn a California pension, it's only taxable under the widely-varying laws of the states of residence) it was once a thing. Some sort of outside-the-state auditing capability had to be built into that system.

    I feel quite sure many state government taxing authorities would be quite willing to find a way to rebuild the bureaucracy needed to conduct audits all over the rest of the U.S.

    Hey, just because you live in Lyon doesn't mean you can't get called into the Paris consulate for the IRS to audit your taxes. Why should states feel they should have any less reach?

    In practice, IRS audits of expats are almost exclusively done via correspondence but, while highly improbable, it's still possible to have a Revenue Agent or Officer knock on your door anywhere in the world. (In fact, the Paris posting is one of the most sought-after positions in the bureau.) Where the states are concerned, I don't expect that California will set up a tax office in every major city in the U.S. but I can easily imagine some sort of correspondence audit system coming quickly into use. Eventually, I'd envision states cooperating and performing audits for each other.

    ETA - Yes, I understand that this thread isn't about income taxes but when it comes to enforcement mindsets, all taxes can be discussed collectively.
    Texas SOT
     

    Ole Cowboy

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    Obviously some of us don’t agree with your assessment. Just as you don’t agree with ours. SCOTUS cannot make decisions in a vacuum. And to extend the argument, some with argue they don’t have standing to make decisions on tax policy - this more correctly falls under the authority of the legislative branch.
    You are correct and correct. SCOTUS was created to rule upon the law of the land as it pertained to its CONSTITUTIONALITY. What has occurred it what we call "Scope Creep". SCOTUS is trying to make STATE Tax law and this is so far from the job as to laughable, except it's NOT!

    What SCOTUS is hanging its hat on is the Interstate Commerce clause and it and the "provide for the welfare" are the 2 things that have all but destroyed the Constitution as it was intended.
     

    busykngt

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    Eventually, I'd envision states cooperating and performing audits for each other.

    That’s what I was getting at in the second paragraph of my post #57. I was envisioning a third party (outside vendor), hired by the states, that would basically be conducting audits for multiple states at one time.

    There are potentially far reaching economic implications of this SCOTUS decision that may well stagnate the overall economy.

    And of interest to note, this decision was supported in the 5-4 split decision by the conservative members of the court (mostly notably, Clarence Thomas and Neil Gorsuch). Trump also saw it as a good decision according to his comments.
     
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    Ole Cowboy

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    Well, that precedent was set a long time ago. Before 1996, when the problem was fixed by federal source tax legislation, California forced anyone receiving a pension from a California entity to pay income taxes in California. Period. It didn't matter where you lived.

    I'm not sure about the nuts and bolts of enforcement but there was a time that if you worked a long career in California as a teacher or state government employee, retired, and drew a pension, you still had to pay California income taxes no matter where you moved. While that has been changed for over 20 years (if you earn a California pension, it's only taxable under the widely-varying laws of the states of residence) it was once a thing. Some sort of outside-the-state auditing capability had to be built into that system.

    I feel quite sure many state government taxing authorities would be quite willing to find a way to rebuild the bureaucracy needed to conduct audits all over the rest of the U.S.

    Hey, just because you live in Lyon doesn't mean you can't get called into the Paris consulate for the IRS to audit your taxes. Why should states feel they should have any less reach?

    In practice, IRS audits of expats are almost exclusively done via correspondence but, while highly improbable, it's still possible to have a Revenue Agent or Officer knock on your door anywhere in the world. (In fact, the Paris posting is one of the most sought-after positions in the bureau.) Where the states are concerned, I don't expect that California will set up a tax office in every major city in the U.S. but I can easily imagine some sort of correspondence audit system coming quickly into use. Eventually, I'd envision states cooperating and performing audits for each other.

    ETA - Yes, I understand that this thread isn't about income taxes but when it comes to enforcement mindsets, all taxes can be discussed collectively.
    This will only lead to nothing but a mess. Typical when actions are taken without consideration for the ramifications of that action. All laws should have a trial period post implementation to see if it makes good sense in reality, not everything does I can assure you.
     

    TheDan

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    Everybody keeps saying 50 states... there are 5 states that do not have sales tax
    You still have to set the rule that those 5 get zero, and you have to monitor their tax code in case they choose to start charging for it in the future.

    I'm curious about the mid-range aggregators. For example, I wonder if sites like Etsy will survive?
    I suspect Etsy will hire a team of people to manage it (or just hire Amazon to do it), and their service fees will increase accordingly. People like avvidclif will have to open an Etsy or Amazon store if they want to stay in business.

    Personally I hope we see massive disobedience.

    I’m hard pressed to imagine why they ever had standing to rule on the matter.
    Uh, don't you see the "Supreme" in their titles? They are wizards channeling the legal intent of the Founding Fathers. Shhhh... they know what's best for you.
     

    oldag

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    Obviously some of us don’t agree with your assessment. Just as you don’t agree with ours. SCOTUS cannot make decisions in a vacuum. And to extend the argument, some with argue they don’t have standing to make decisions on tax policy - this more correctly falls under the authority of the legislative branch.

    Have to agree with Austin. SCOTUS is to decide constitutionality of laws. Not to figure out how to implement. If implementation is a problem, then congress needs to address the issue via legislation.
     

    oldag

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    You are correct and correct. SCOTUS was created to rule upon the law of the land as it pertained to its CONSTITUTIONALITY. What has occurred it what we call "Scope Creep". SCOTUS is trying to make STATE Tax law and this is so far from the job as to laughable, except it's NOT!

    What SCOTUS is hanging its hat on is the Interstate Commerce clause and it and the "provide for the welfare" are the 2 things that have all but destroyed the Constitution as it was intended.

    If commerce occurring across state lines does not meet the criteria for Interstate Commerce, I do not know what would.
     

    Ole Cowboy

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    If commerce occurring across state lines does not meet the criteria for Interstate Commerce, I do not know what would.
    Then what we have to show just how far they stretch the commerce clause. Using it to rule on state sales taxes, sorry but IMO that is abridge to far, but SCOTUS has stretched it even further many time over the years.
     

    oldag

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    Then what we have to show just how far they stretch the commerce clause. Using it to rule on state sales taxes, sorry but IMO that is abridge to far, but SCOTUS has stretched it even further many time over the years.

    If you do not apply the Interstate Commerce clause to interstate commerce, then what in the heck would you ever apply it to??
     

    busykngt

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    Last edited:

    Ole Cowboy

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    If you do not apply the Interstate Commerce clause to interstate commerce, then what in the heck would you ever apply it to??
    What you need to do is some research on how far they have bent that clause, if you think it ONLY applies to what crosses state lines you are in for a BIG surprise! In fact there is no requirement for you to cross the state line!!!
     

    oldag

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    BK and OC, I am not talking about other applications of the Interstate Commerce clause. I am talking about THIS application.

    If you want to say the ICC has been abused in other areas/applications, fine.

    But to say it does not apply to interstate commerce here in this instance... Really??
     

    Ole Cowboy

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    BK and OC, I am not talking about other applications of the Interstate Commerce clause. I am talking about THIS application.

    If you want to say the ICC has been abused in other areas/applications, fine.

    But to say it does not apply to interstate commerce here in this instance... Really??
    NO ONE has said that, in fact I said that was what they did 'hung their hat on the Interstate Commerce clause', I nor anyone else has argued that point. What I did say was that it and the 'provide for the welfare' is what has almost destroyed our Constitution. Congress and the courts bent these to the point its allowed them to do and justify almost anything they wish.

    While I fully agree that selling across state lines is in fact Interstate commerce my point of contention is SCOTUS ruling on State Taxes. Their ruling could have been and should have been IMO is that internet sales are Interstate commerce as it is defined by the Constitution. That is ALL they needed or should say, then let the individual states decide upon how they apply their own tax laws.
     

    Dash Riprock

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    So with respect to interstate commerce, isn't the idea there that the federal government, presumably through legislation passed by Congress and signed by the executive, has the constitutional authority to regulate it? And if they choose not to, which I assume is the case here, then it's not regulated and that's that. How can a state essentially decide for itself to regulate interstate commerce by ordering another state's business to collect sales tax on its behalf? States aren't supposed to have that power constitutionally; that's why the IC clause is there to begin with.

    Did the Supreme Court just usurp yet another power for itself by basically saying "well since Congress won't act, we will - here's what you do, now do it and shut up"?
     

    Dash Riprock

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    What SCOTUS is hanging its hat on is the Interstate Commerce clause and it and the "provide for the welfare" are the 2 things that have all but destroyed the Constitution as it was intended.

    Probably a topic for a different thread but not only do I completely agree, I believe this is the single biggest factor that has contributed to the current political dysfunction we're seeing right now. The courts were NEVER supposed to wield this much power; in so many areas they have taken it upon themselves to essentially replace an incompetent legislative branch to just decree whatever they think is necessary to move the country forward. That is horribly, horribly dangerous in so many ways and we're starting to see it now, among other things in our increasing inability and unwillingness to compromise and "get along" with the "other side".

    But I digress.

    Also, not to pick nits, but the preamble to the Constitution says it is to "promote the general welfare", not "provide for the welfare". But I think later on it does reference "provide for..." in relation to Congress's ability to levy taxes. I'd also add the 14th Amendment and "equal protection" to the list of intentional misinterpretations that have all but destroyed the Constitution.
     
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