Pros and Cons of Buying a Tavor.

Sam7sf said:

See I would feel fine with an arx at that price range. The tavor needs to be cheaper.

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The price of the Tavor is two-fold 1) the Israelis use it.. anything the IDF uses tactiKEWL guys in the US HAVE TO HAVE IT... See the Galil and the UZI (even the semi auto versions are ridiculous priced.) 2) It's imported from a 1st world country and designed by IMI... (IWI) see Galil, Uzi, Jericho, Tavor, Desert Eagle, or any other damned gun they've designed.

Like my Tavor and Aug, no regrets buying either.
Favor the Tavor mainly due to the upgraded trigger and better optic.

It really is something you'd have to get your hands on and figure out for yourself, I've had everything from the love it to hate it.

Don't aug's also have nice aftermarket trigger support? I haven't understood the tavor hype versus AUG tbh. I just wish all the bullpups could be DI AR sub moa accurate.

Pro: It's not an AR.

Con: It's not an AR.

It's a bullpup. Trigger issues with bullpups if you can easily recognize such things, many can't. It's a bullpup, expensive and um...its a bullpup.

Imho there are better ways to get the benefits of a bullpup.

candcallen said:

It's a bullpup. Trigger issues with bullpups if you can easily recognize such things, many can't. It's a bullpup, expensive and um...its a bullpup.

Imho there are better ways to get the benefits of a bullpup.

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elaborate please...

candcallen said:

Imho there are better ways to get the benefits of a bullpup.

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Yes, please elaborate.

The Desert Tech MDR Photos
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Seriously elaborate? Am I getting set up? There are better gotchas. LOL.

Main benefit is ofcourse length and what goes with that indoors. Secondary is sometimes weight depending on materials and some folks like the balance or feel better. This said the m4 and tavor weigh about the same.

Other platforms like sbrs with collapsible stocks can get you most of that 10 inches or so you get in the bullpup design. All the 10 to 11 inch ARs are within an inch of the tavor and pistol variations are shorter. OAL. Balance is a subjective thing so if you like a bullpup balance I surrender as you can't get that ass heavy feel in a standard configuration. Although the Mini14 might come close. I hate those things.

Oh but your giving up barrel length the bullpup folks will say. You're not going to miss that in in CQB or urban combat. You will miss it in the open and that's the same with 14.5 inch AR. The caliber is your failure point to begin with. Still you lose barrel length over a bullpup, that's a fact.

Opinions are like anuses, we all think ours dont stink. IMHO there is a better way to get the reduced length without completely changing your manual of arms and suffering thru mushy triggers.

Bullpup and tavor coolaid drinkers will probably disagree. Murica !

You did not answer the question, nor did you tell us anything we did not know.

As for the mushy trigger, these are not target rifles, the M 16 series and the Tavor are combat issue weapons to soldiers.

I had a Sgt Major in my unit on his retirement assignment in Texas. I got to know him very well, he was old school hard, he was the number 2 ranked Sgt Major in the Army.

He liked to play pool and he liked to play for money, big money and he won and won a lot. He would stop off at a bar and pool room early in the day and drop off a broom. Later he would come back and play pool and fake being drunk, start talking big to a mark, they would play a few games he would win but lose most then challenge him to a game at a $1000 or more, winner take all and he would shoot with a broom handle.

I have seen him run the table with that broom handle and saw him win nearly $10,000 in a night with it. I asked him one time how does he win with a broom handle against these guys with high dollar custom pool cues. He told me: Simple, I have a pool table at home and I practice, practice, practice with that broom handle.

In the early days of the Army before WWII hitting the target at 1000 yards with a '03 Springfield and iron sights got you $5 bucks a month in extra pay. This was a time when a dollar a day was good pay and you could support a family on it. My dad went in the Army in '34 and he got that $5 bucks a month. When I asked my dad how he did that the answer was practice.

Your mushy trigger is a non factor to a soldier.

As for the AR design, IMO its one of the best designed rifles in history in both of its configurations (AR 15/AR 10). The Tavor was purpose designed and extensively tested in the IDF before it was fielded. I spent an afternoon on the IWI range with the Tavor and as someone who carried a M16 family rifle for half of his adult life one of the things that impressed me was the ergonomics and my ability to adapt to the Tavor almost instantly.

Bullpups have been around a LONG time and I have never been a fan, Tavor overcame those drawbacks and IWI has produced a world class combat weapon...

Soooooo you didnt want me to elaborate on why I felt there are better ways to get the benefits of the bullpup designs than getting a bullpup?

I must have missed something because I said that IMHO there are better ways to get the benefits of the bullpup design than getting a bullpup. And some folks said please elaborate.

I thought it funny cause I figured it would be easy to figure out what I meant as it's not a secret or something most didnt know. And exactly answered the question of please elaborate.

Maybe it's too early and I'm groggy foggy and confused. I thought I answered it. It's an opinion and folks will differ.

I may be sounding like an ars but I'm not trying to be. We all have our flaws.

I still dont like bullpups.

candcallen said:

Soooooo you didnt want me to elaborate on why I felt there are better ways to get the benefits of the bullpup designs than getting a bullpup?

I must have missed something because I said that IMHO there are better ways to get the benefits of the bullpup design than getting a bullpup. And some folks said please elaborate.

I thought it funny cause I figured it would be easy to figure out what I meant as it's not a secret or something most didnt know. And exactly answered the question of please elaborate.

Maybe it's too early and I'm groggy foggy and confused. I thought I answered it. It's an opinion and folks will differ.

I may be sounding like an ars but I'm not trying to be. We all have our flaws.

I still dont like bullpups.

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Guess I’m groggy and confused too lol. Was hoping for some enlightenment but guess I missed it also.

You mentioned weights being close to same...agree but it’s not the total weight, but how that weight is distributed that one might find more beneficial in bullpup design.

Then you mentioned length and said you can get shorter lengths by using short barrel rifles with collapsible stocks instead. Assume you mean NFA short barrel rifles since you also added collapsible stock vs AR pistol setups. Not really an apples to apples comparison to me any longer?

Then you lost me on the caliber statement, sorry.

I’m new to bullpup, the X95 being my first, but what I like about it so far is that IN SPITE of the near identical specs on paper as my military-issue M4 (same basic weight, same basic barrel length, same caliber, same capacity), it sure seems to be more maneuverable/ergonomic, easier to carry, and quicker to employ in tighter spaces than the M4. There may be other advantages, hell there may even be disadvantages, I just haven’t discovered them yet.

I guess maybe we thought you were going to provide other weapons that provided the SAME perceived advantages as a bullpup design. You just provided other non-bullpup design choices that we already were familiar with. You gun-teased us

Meant to add about the Tavor trigger...honestly I’ve never felt it was bad at all compared to a military M16/M4 and have no need to do anything to it. Maybe if I compared it to an AR competition or hunting trigger, but in a battle rifle it works just fine to me.

As the OP, I appreciate all the comments and information. I'm learning a great deal. I'm still leaning toward a bull pup mainly because of the shortened over-all length.

Charlie, If you want to give a Tavor a try, I'll be bringin' mine to TSSR come October.

Thanks, sir. 'Will look forward to that!

Charlie said:

As the OP, I appreciate all the comments and information. I'm learning a great deal. I'm still leaning toward a bull pup mainly because of the shortened over-all length.

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Definitely worth checking out! I honestly wasn’t expecting to like it myself at all simply because well (maybe hurting feelings here sorry LOL) but I thought it just looked weird (was gonna say ugly lol) like something out of Star Wars or Mad Max or something
It has really grown on me though to the point of thinking I’d have preferred it to the M4 as a combat rifle. Haven’t gotten to run it on a real TAC course or anything but probably someone has vs an M4. I just haven’t looked for those test results. The Israelis switched for some reason though? Be sure to let us know what you think. It does take some getting used to btw.

No hurt feelings. They are ugly at first. Like a Glock looks like a brick with a trigger, the Tavor looked like a 2x6 with a trigger and a mag. But, it truly does grow on ya'. Kinda like that FUGLY! dog down the street. Now, they come across to me as one of/some of the purtiest rifles out there.

Ugly doesn't mean much to me one way or another for a piece of equipment. Most of the bull pup type weapons could, I guess, be considered ugly by the average shooter.

Jigo23 said:

Guess I’m groggy and confused too lol. Was hoping for some enlightenment but guess I missed it also.

You mentioned weights being close to same...agree but it’s not the total weight, but how that weight is distributed that one might find more beneficial in bullpup design.

Then you mentioned length and said you can get shorter lengths by using short barrel rifles with collapsible stocks instead. Assume you mean NFA short barrel rifles since you also added collapsible stock vs AR pistol setups. Not really an apples to apples comparison to me any longer?

Then you lost me on the caliber statement, sorry.

I’m new to bullpup, the X95 being my first, but what I like about it so far is that IN SPITE of the near identical specs on paper as my military-issue M4 (same basic weight, same basic barrel length, same caliber, same capacity), it sure seems to be more maneuverable/ergonomic, easier to carry, and quicker to employ in tighter spaces than the M4. There may be other advantages, hell there may even be disadvantages, I just haven’t discovered them yet.

I guess maybe we thought you were going to provide other weapons that provided the SAME perceived advantages as a bullpup design. You just provided other non-bullpup design choices that we already were familiar with. You gun-teased us

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It has great ergonomics and that is sore spot in my world as one of my specialities is 'human interface design', aka 'man-machine interface'.

While the ME desert terrain may not pose a disadvantage to the M4, nor give the Tavor/X95 an advantage, the moment you move into a CQC mode or terrain challenged such as a jungle or heavily wooded enviro its advantage to the Tavor/X95 platform. The Army solution was to just shorten the barrel saying its not a problem in the 50 meter playground. OK but to that I say then I don't a 5.56 and the weapon of destruction would be??? .45 ACP SMG. My dad loved it and raved about its ability in the jungles of his on his Island tour of the Pacific. Heavy? Only to the FNG's! I carried a M14 before I got my hands on a M16 and I never thought it was heavy, perhaps having something to do with that 3500 bales of hay I loaded UP into the barn every year. Trust me you adapt!

My go to would be my X95 in a city in a CQC mode or terrain challenged. In fact here in the S part of the Texas Hill Country I would chose the X95 over a M4 any day. For an idea of how thick this can get: I decided to see how long it took me to clear an area that I rough measured to be about 60x60. I use a Billy Goat Commercial rough cut mower which weighs in at 355 lbs (if I can shove it over it chews it up like candy) and a chainsaw with a 20 In bar. Took me 4 days to clear that area.