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FL Parking lot shooter arrested

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  • majormadmax

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    I respect the hell out of you, major, but I definitely disagree on the facts. I absolutely agree that there was no legal right for the man to shove the guy to the ground. Nothing he did gave him legal justification to assault him. However, the assault ended and so too did the reasonableness of the shooter to have felt he was in immediate fear for his life. That was done when the man backed off. It would have been a closer case had the man drawn and fired DURING the shoving assault, but that's not what happened.

    Sorry, I still disagree. The power and impact by which the shooter hit the ground is enough for him to be in fear of his life. There isn't time to ascertain whether the threat is lethal or not, he was in fear for his life and took appropriate action to defend himself. Monday-morning quarterbacking--as everyone on this forum has the luxury of doing--is one thing, but all his lawyer has to do is presenting the victim's state of mind after being so badly assaulted which will be enough to acquit him!

    Simply put, and as has been stated before, put a police officer in the shooter's situation. Do you honestly think an officer wouldn't have reacted the same way?
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    diesel1959

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    Sorry, I still disagree. The power and impact by which the shooter hit the ground is enough for him to be in fear of his life. There isn't time to ascertain whether the threat is lethal or not, he was in fear for his life and took appropriate action to defend himself. Monday-morning quarterbacking--as everyone on this forum has the luxury of doing--is one thing, but all his lawyer has to do is presenting the victim's state of mind after being so badly assaulted which will be enough to acquit him!

    Simply put, and as has been stated before, put a police officer in the shooter's situation. Do you honestly think an officer wouldn't have reacted the same way?
    See, here's the thing--it's at least a question that should go to a jury. It's not clear cut either way. The sheriff was wrong about SYG (he may have an axe to grind, who knows); however, it is perfectly acceptable for the prosecutors to present this to a grand jury and have them decide if there's probable cause to charge with homicide on some level. I don't know if Florida requires a grand jury to do that, but in Texas, that's what happens for felony-level offenses, and manslaughter is just such a case.

    I'm not saying he's guilty or that he'll be found guilty. What I am saying is that there is probable cause to believe that a crime has been committed from an objective reasonableness point of view. I thing the DA has done the right thing in this instance.

    As to what an officer would do in such circumstances, I'd like to point out that most officers would draw and come up to their feet at gunpoint to the assailant, order him to the ground, then place him under arrest for assaulting a peace officer. I think the reasonableness of the use of deadly force would be no different for an officer in this case. There's definitely authority to use threat of use of deadly force (draw and point); however, that does not equate to actual use of deadly force.
     

    Kar98

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    Sorry, I still disagree. The power and impact by which the shooter hit the ground is enough for him to be in fear of his life. There isn't time to ascertain whether the threat is lethal or not, he was in fear for his life and took appropriate action to defend himself. Monday-morning quarterbacking--as everyone on this forum has the luxury of doing--is one thing, but all his lawyer has to do is presenting the victim's state of mind after being so badly assaulted which will be enough to acquit him!

    Simply put, and as has been stated before, put a police officer in the shooter's situation. Do you honestly think an officer wouldn't have reacted the same way?

    Texas Penal Code - PENAL § 9.31. Self-Defense:

    (b) The use of force against another is not justified:

    (4) if the actor provoked the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force


    I'd use the "blink" and "marquee" tags if those were still a thing.
    And like I said, IDK what effed up laws Florida has, but that's the law in Texas.

    https://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-code/penal-sect-9-31.html


    And I don't care what a cop does. I'm not a cop. I don't have cop union lawyers getting me off with four weeks paid vacation for killing unarmed people sleeping in the house that's not even the right one for the no-knock raid in the middle of the night.
     

    karlac

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    Bullshit. This guy was in an argument with a woman when he was physically assaulted to a degree where he reasonably feared for his life. The true guilty party is the guy who ended up with a round in his chest, as he was getting ready to assault the guy on the ground again after already doing so. He did not cause the situation to escalate to that point, he was merely telling the woman she was illegally parked.

    Agree, impact of the dude hitting the ground was most likely enough to disorient him, putting him in the midst of a fight or flight adrenaline rush, and likely causing a case of tunnel vision at that point. As a result, things looked different to him laying on the ground with the assaulter still facing, and looming over him, and the fact that the assaulter stepped back likely not apparent from that perspective.

    At the very least, an entirely different perspective from that seen by the video camera angle. Making it way too easy for anyone not having been in that position to be Monday morning quarterbacking.

    You can bet that, along the age difference and possible medical conditions of the shooter, is going to be the basis for a self defense plea. Still, will be interesting see what a jury decides ... and I certainly wouldn't want to be in that situation in today's social climate.
     

    toddnjoyce

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    Seems as good a time as any to bring this topic back up:

    https://www.texasguntalk.com/threads/plan-b-less-than-lethal.86992/

    Lots of folks, (me included), believe avoiding a confrontation is Plan A, and plan B is somewhere way down the use of force continuum. Shout, shove, show, shoot.

    Why don’t we talk about less than lethal options (other than avoidance) either the chick in the car, the shooter, or the shootee could have employed and whether anyone thinks one of those options would have changed the outcome.
     

    Kar98

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    Soooooo... One guy shoves, like you suggest, but that gives the other guy, who started this interaction in first place, the right to shoot him?
     

    toddnjoyce

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    Soooooo... One guy shoves, like you suggest, but that gives the other guy, who started this interaction in first place, the right to shoot him?

    Not the question I asked and not what I’m implying at all.

    I’ll go first.

    Less than lethal option A: shooter shoved to ground, responds with pepper spray, creates distance, retreats to car, leaves.

    Less than lethal option B. Shootee exits store, leads with pepper spray and has it going to the face immediately, retreats to store or cover on far side of car while calling 911.

    Both options rely on surprise. Generally speaking the first to act will win. In this case, the shootee didn’t honor the implied threat in Fl: everyone has a gun and is willing to use it.

    How do you approach a ‘crazed’ individual (my story and I’m sticking to it) between you and your ‘threatened’ loved one.

    I for one would opt to have the chicken car call 911 and report crazy guy threatening and afraid for life. Let the pros handle it.
     

    Kar98

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    Just checking. Situational awareness and preparation would make this situation unlikely. Also, she's got her own gun on her. But lets stipulate this exact situation, I'd already have mine out, drawn, the slack taken off the trigger and maneuvered myself in a better tactical position before making my presence known to crazy guy... LOL, I hope, anyway.

    Edited, see here: https://www.theonion.com/report-average-male-4-000-less-effective-in-fights-th-1819576624
     
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    benenglish

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    the guy had pulled that kind of crazy parking space vigilante watchdog thing before.
    I've been the "handicapped space watchdog" before. (Having a handicapped sister, cousin, and several co-workers over the years can create that attitude.) My method, though, is to call the non-emergency Constable number. In and around my neighborhood, they show right up because it's an easy, profitable ticket. Hell, one time I called on a pickup illegally parked in a handicapped space and before the Constable could arrive, a Smart car pulled into the lined wheelchair unloading space next to the handicapped space. When the Constable arrived, he got to write two easy tickets for the trouble of just one trip.

    In this case, why on earth would this guy feel the need to personally involve himself? If you're that offended by this particular infraction, just put the right telephone number in your speed dial. It can be amazing how fast LEOs can show up for something this easy with a fine this big.
     

    toddnjoyce

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    Just checking. Situational awareness and preparation would make this situation unlikely. Also, she's got her own gun on her. But lets stipulate this exact situation, I'd already have mine out, drawn, the slack taken off the trigger and maneuvered myself in a better tactical position before making my presence known to crazy guy... LOL, I hope, anyway.

    Let’s assume chicken car texts the shootee..crazy dude outside the car...I’m scared...

    My first instinct is to call chicken car to gain SA and coordinate plan.

    My gut is have store call 911, wait in store, keep chicken car on the line. So long as the original shooter doesn’t try to physically enter the car, that’s my plan.

    Someone trying to enter the car, I’m out the door, weapon drawn, hidden, low ready, or ready, based on the situation, taking control and issuing forceful instructions “Back away from the car. Police have been called; get in your vehicle and wait for police to arrive.”

    ETA: chuckling at the onion piece.

    One advantage I do have is actual combat experience. If I’ve decided to involve myself in this situation (invading defensible space of a potentially armed threat), I’m in it to win it.
     
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    diesel1959

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    I've been the "handicapped space watchdog" before. (Having a handicapped sister, cousin, and several co-workers over the years can create that attitude.) My method, though, is to call the non-emergency Constable number. In and around my neighborhood, they show right up because it's an easy, profitable ticket. Hell, one time I called on a pickup illegally parked in a handicapped space and before the Constable could arrive, a Smart car pulled into the lined wheelchair unloading space next to the handicapped space. When the Constable arrived, he got to write two easy tickets for the trouble of just one trip.

    In this case, why on earth would this guy feel the need to personally involve himself? If you're that offended by this particular infraction, just put the right telephone number in your speed dial. It can be amazing how fast LEOs can show up for something this easy with a fine this big.
    I give folks who abuse HC spaces some lip service at times. I'm an above-the-knee amputee and use a wheelchair or my crutches (if I have my prosthesis & socket on). But I'm also still a peace officer, and have a tough time just walking past stuff like that. And ever since I got hurt on the job, the reality of needing to use HC spaces has become far more "real" to me.
     

    oldag

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    "Excuse me, I just thought you might want to know that you forgot to hang your handicap tag on the rear view mirror. If you do not have one, those who have a handicap tag would appreciate your parking in a regular spot."

    And walk on. If they don't either hang a tag or move, let the store call the police.

    Those who need a handicap spot deserve the rest of us trying to keep their parking spots available.
     

    karlac

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    "Excuse me, I just thought you might want to know that you forgot to hang your handicap tag on the rear view mirror. If you do not have one, those who have a handicap tag would appreciate your parking in a regular spot."

    And walk on. If they don't either hang a tag or move, let the store call the police.

    Those who need a handicap spot deserve the rest of us trying to keep their parking spots available.

    And yet I've had friends berate me for not using an empty HC slot, thereby leaving a spot for them in the regular places ... sometimes you just can't win.

    Recently found a twenty something cutie photoing the back of my truck parked in an HC spot outside a Randall's as I was walking back to load the groceries.

    Asked her if I could help her. She said she was reporting me because there was no HC plaque or HC symbol on my plates (had an app on her phone just for that) and I shouldn't be parking there.

    I thanked of her for her service, told her to be sure and get a good shot of that Texas DV plate, welcomed her to Texas, and sincerely hoped she wasn't easily embarrassed by her ignorance.
     

    toddnjoyce

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    Self-appointed handicapped spot nazis are as bad as the "stolen valor" patrol.

    unless I’m being paid to enforce a law, regulation, or code it’s going to take a whole lot for me to get involved in someone else’s business, especially to pass judgment in whatever it is they have done/are doing.

    My life is worth a whole lot more than somebody else’s perceived self worth.
     

    Kar98

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    unless I’m being paid to enforce a law, regulation, or code it’s going to take a whole lot for me to get involved in someone else’s business, especially to pass judgment in whatever it is they have done/are doing.

    My life is worth a whole lot more than somebody else’s perceived self worth.

    For two reasons: a, I don't have a whole bunch of cop union lawyers behind me; and b, there's plenty of handicaps that aren't visible to the naked, untrained eye. We need to bring back the ORIGINAL motto on U.S. currency!

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