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  • benenglish

    Just Another Boomer
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    7   0   0
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    I do get weary explaining why I can't just sell out the door without sales tax like they do at the gun show........
    That one has irritated me since I was a kid. As a teen I saw a guy go nuts on a convenience store clerk about a purchase where he bought two items and the total sales tax was 3 cents. If the clerk had rung up the two items as two separate transactions, the tax on each transaction would have been a penny each. The customer would have saved ONE cent.

    Over that ONE cent, I saw this old guy throw a screaming, spitting, cursing fit at the poor girl behind the counter. He actually expected her to run the transactions in her head first and them ring them up in whatever way would save the customer on taxes. As stupid as that sounds, he spent a couple of minutes yelling at her to teach her exactly that.

    As a kid, that made a big impression on me. People for whom taxes are such a touchy subject that literally a penny will send them into a fit of apoplexy (not to mention people who try to steal big bucks via big fraud) have a screw loose that I'll never understand.
    Military Camp
     

    Southpaw

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    14   0   0
    Mar 30, 2009
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    Guadalupe Co.
    Southpaw: Buds isn't really a LGS (local gun shop). They're a B&M (bricks and mortar). Not to split hairs but if you order from them, they're not YOUR LGS. They are just a B&M with a large online presence. Many online stores have a small showroom because many manfs/distros will not sell to online only stores. So they have a small showroom and hours posted so they qualify. Now, Buds might have been a mom and pop at one time and became the Dell of online stores. Good for them. They win the online game (for now). When we talk about shopping at a LGS, it's as much about supporting your community. Bud's is not your community. Let's say you work for Exxon (corporate). Your job isn't really dependent on a local economy. But your kid waits tables at Chili's. You buy a gun in my store for close to what you'd pay online. I take that meager profit and eat at Chili's that week. Your kid happens to wait on me. I tip my standard 15-20%. Basically, I could afford to do that because you shopped with me that week. That's the "local" part of LGS. I'm about to put a flatbed on my wife's truck. I think my customer who owns a custom shop is probably going to be higher than the other bed shop. But he's bought several guns here and sent some other business. I even set up an account with Cimarron JUST to buy the gun he wanted. I told him I'd match prices and he said "just treat me fair. I know you need to make something on it." I still matched the online prices. And now I'm about to buy a $5000 truck bed from him. That's "local". I'm also about to invest in a customer's trucking company. He doesn't even buy a lot here, but he buys some stuff. And he's sent some other business. We've become good friends and now I'm putting $50k-$100k into his trucking business. Not even as a favor, but because he's doing amazing and it's a good investment. But that's local. None of those stories would happen if they bought exclusively online. You don't see that in the price tag. You don't see that when I'm $1400 on a gun that Bud's has for $1380. The relationships and the reinvestment in the community come from the "L" in LGS.
    .

    I never said they were part of my community only that they are in fact an LGS to someone. No one is stopping any of my LGS from becoming the next Buds. Instead of complaining about such business models, perhaps some LGS's would be better off stepping up their game and competing on the same level as a Bud's Guns.

    For the record, I always ask my transferring dealer for their best price on what I am looking at. It doesn't have to match, but it has to be within reason. To date they have not been able to do that.
     

    Moonpie

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    Gunz are icky.
    A&P thank you for the reply.
    The thing is you're close to 100 miles away from me.

    The LGS in my area have always sucked.
    I've been around here for close to forty years now and they've always been a pain in the ass.
    Places like Bud's, Grab-a-Gun, Wholesale Hunter, Dixie Gun Works, etc are a godsend for those of us who enjoy off-beat firearms.
     

    Dancing Heretik

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    Aug 8, 2018
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    San Antonio, TX
    So the customer would pay and wait. When the gun would arrive and the customer went to get it, Pop would say "THEY" raised the price another $72 or $147 or some such B.S. The customer was screwed and forced to choke up the extra $. He was already into the gun for the full non-refundable amount so he had to pay the extortion money to get the gun.
    Isn't that illegal?
    Several times I went to a gun store on San Pedro in San Antonio, a well known place, where you were lucky to be acknowledged as a customer. The place was an old established business in San Antonio, but the store was junky, piled high with "stuff" so much so you needed a hard hat to shop. They had the condescinding attitude you mention.
    Please, identify! My local gun store is Modern Elite Firearms, which does not sound anything like what you're describing. But, it is on San Pedro. What gun store are you talking about?
     

    Moonpie

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    Gunz are icky.
    Isn't that illegal?
    Illegal? Not sure.
    Unethical as hell tho.
    I know of one customer who got right up in that shop owners face and then called the cops.
    Threatened to sue. yada yada yada. He got his gun at the price he paid.
    Everyone knew it was B.S. because the guy had ordered the gun at the agreed on price. He was just trying to stiff customers for a few more $.

    Please, identify! My local gun store is Modern Elite Firearms, which does not sound anything like what you're describing. But, it is on San Pedro. What gun store are you talking about?

    Nagel's. They've been like that forever.
     

    A & P

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    Aug 4, 2014
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    Tomball/Magnolia
    I never said they were part of my community only that they are in fact an LGS to someone. No one is stopping any of my LGS from becoming the next Buds. Instead of complaining about such business models, perhaps some LGS's would be better off stepping up their game and competing on the same level as a Bud's Guns.

    For the record, I always ask my transferring dealer for their best price on what I am looking at. It doesn't have to match, but it has to be within reason. To date they have not been able to do that.

    In one of my novels I addressed the idea of LGSs becoming the next Buds. Oddly enough, we have Freedom Munitions to demonstrate the futility in that. I could probably beat Buds. I could sell for a few dollars less even. Then someone else does the same to me. Before long, all these companies go out of business by trying to be the cheapest. In any industry, there can really only be a few successful companies like that. Think of all the people who over the last decade or so tried to compete online just to be crushed by Amazon. The only real online competitors are going to be manufacturer direct to customer models. I resent competing with manufacturers so when they sell online and then expect me to also carry their products in my store, I usually don't. I dropped Geissele triggers because of that. They had a one day sale where they sold for my cost. I can't compete with that! Shame on them. So I don't sell them anymore. But the manf direct to customer model is part of the next evolution. That'll really cut LGSs out. And it'll hinder your ability to see things before you buy them. The only saving grace right now is the FFL required transfer. If they ever allowed direct sales (like I hear they used to in the 50s - 60s era and before), LGSs will be gone. Not enough business.

    I'm glad you check with your LGS to match prices. That's all we ask here. If you already know what you want and I can match the out the door price, please let me try. In a few cases, I actually beat the out the door price. Some people will buy CDNN or other discounters but since they charge Texas tax, shipping, and then transfer, I can frequently beat them. But the buyer just assumes it's cheaper online or just compares sticker prices. Can't always match or beat, but I often can.

    Now, on unusual, old, out of production, or used guns...by all means, check Buds, GBroker, etc. I'm always happy to do a $25 transfer in those cases. I even get to learn a bit of history or otherwise expand my gun knowledge. I've learned a lot from customers collections.
     

    benenglish

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    The only real online competitors are going to be manufacturer direct to customer models.
    In certain markets, this is painfully true. High end speakers, for example, still have quite a bit of markup. They need to have it because you really need to listen to a speaker before you buy it.

    Some manufacturers have taken the plunge, however. There are makers out there who will sell you a set of speakers for $2K with a 90-day return privilege. The same quality of speakers from a retailer (after their cut and after the distributor cut) would cost $5K or more.

    Those direct-sale manufacturers haven't taken over the market, though. The need to try before you buy is so important in that market that customers are still willing to pay sizable markups to avoid purchasing something they don't like.

    I think a recognition of that situation might serve a local gun shop well but the details of how to do that are not fully formed in my mind. I know there are FFLs that almost exclusively do transfers but is it possible to support a brick-and-mortar location on that model? I dunno.
     

    Darkpriest667

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    In one of my novels I addressed the idea of LGSs becoming the next Buds. Oddly enough, we have Freedom Munitions to demonstrate the futility in that. I could probably beat Buds. The only saving grace right now is the FFL required transfer. If they ever allowed direct sales (like I hear they used to in the 50s - 60s era and before), LGSs will be gone. Not enough business.

    .


    I support LGS whenever I can, but sometimes their prices are higher even before tax...I don't mind paying 25 or 30 bucks more when tax is included, but when its 50 dollars more before tax I look online. Like I've said before, next time I'm down in the area I'll come by your shop. I certainly prefer to spend local.
     

    avvidclif

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    Hmmmm. LGS doing transfers. He knows what is coming and if a fairly common round gets a stock of ammo for it at a good deal and makes a profit on the ammo. Same for a few usual accessories. Just thinking out loud.
     

    Moonpie

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    Gunz are icky.
    As I've said before I will support the LGS but sometimes you could just scream.
    This happened today.
    CCI Mini-mags/100rd box.
    Wal-Mart = <$8.00
    Academy = $8.00
    LGS = $19.95
    Now I did fall off the turnip truck but not yesterday.
    I understand he has to make a profit but seriously?
    Last time I looked it wasn't 2012 anymore.
     

    A & P

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    Tomball/Magnolia
    Pics of the 1911?

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    It's not much to look at. The class was on building, not finishing (which I didn't know when I signed up). It's as fine as any WC or NH functionally. Cosmetically you can see where I was still experimenting. I'm more of a function guy and it's my daily carry. Went to a full scabbard instead of quick draw holster after scratching up the muzzle on concrete when I was sitting on the floor. I highlighted the rear of the gun by the trigger. Marrying the parts to be smooth is a big deal in custom finishes. Even Kimbers tend to be a little uneven and wobbly. Wilson, Nighthawks, etc will finish this area of the guns to make sure they're baby butt smooth. Same with marrying the grip safety into the grip. You can't feel how smooth it is online, or how tight it locks up. The front pic is of the bushing. Hard to see tightness in a picture. Must use a wrench to get it off. You can also see near the muzzle where my fordham tool slipped and I ran up the slide. It'd come off with some finishing but I've never got around to it. Your request also made me realize how filthy it was so it got a little bath before these pictures. You can imagine how dirty it was since it's still kinda dirty.
    IMG_0954.JPG
    IMG_0955.JPG
    IMG_0956.JPG
    IMG_0957.JPG

    Pics of the 1911?

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
     

    A & P

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    Tomball/Magnolia
    Hmmmm. LGS doing transfers. He knows what is coming and if a fairly common round gets a stock of ammo for it at a good deal and makes a profit on the ammo. Same for a few usual accessories. Just thinking out loud.
    I had a guy buy a Savage 116 off my site in 25-06. He picked it up today. I said, "You need ammo?" "Ah, nah. I hadn't been in here before and didn't think you'd have it so I just bought some online." He even bought the gun on my very website and came in to pick it up. And we have 25-06. At a reasonable price! Just can't win! :)

    We only have two sections of ammo. 8' of shelves with about 8 shelves on each unit. So 16 shelves of ammo. But in that we have 25auto (read about someone saying LGSs wouldn't ever have that), 5.7x28 (the FN 5-7 ammo), 32S&W (great for soft loads in the 327 Federal Mag...which we also carry), 10mm, 500S&W, 50AE, 454 Casull, 7.62x54R, 303brit, 7x57 Jap, 8mm Mauser, 458 SOCOM, 32-20, 45Colt, 41 Mag, 44 Spc, CCI snake/rat shot in many calibers, 300bo subs, 308 subs, 22 subs, 338LM, 450 BM, 50BMG, ... and many other "not in Academy" calibers. In just 8' of shelving.

    We're trying to stand out. We also sell reloading powder/primers/bullets. Had a guy today tell me "you're cheaper than Carter's and 10Ring." By how much? "He had this for a few dollars more, but you had to buy 500 to get that price." So we were cheaper on a box of 100 than they are per 100 on a box of 500! That's how good we do on prices.

    For those of you saying the LGS is much more expensive, well, the ones you visit are, but they will have to evolve or die. We have a feed store that pays the rent so maybe the LGS model is to either have a range or lessons or otherwise a synergistic business that can help share employee/rent expenses. I tell my customers I don't fault 10Ring for their 20% higher prices because that's all they sell and have to pay all their bills with that. My guys are paid by the feed store so I don't have the same overhead as they do and I can pass on significant savings. But it's tough to find a business model that works. Hard to sell something you don't carry and if you say "I can order it for you", well, they can order it for themselves (except guns which have to come through the FFL anyway).
     

    A & P

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    Those direct-sale manufacturers haven't taken over the market, though. The need to try before you buy is so important in that market that customers are still willing to pay sizable markups to avoid purchasing something they don't like.

    I think a recognition of that situation might serve a local gun shop well but the details of how to do that are not fully formed in my mind. I know there are FFLs that almost exclusively do transfers but is it possible to support a brick-and-mortar location on that model? I dunno.

    I'm humbly all ears if you have an idea how to make that work. The problem we have, as I've said before, is that people DO need to try before they buy. They like to feel the gun in their hands (and even shoot it if you have a range). They like to look behind a scope before spending $3000. They like to learn about the nuances of reloading before taking the plunge. But then they tend to take that "research" and buy online. Imagine a speaker store with 100k in setups and then people listening for hours to various high end sets. Then they get on Speakers4Less.com and buy for 10% off and no tax. They save $800 on a $7000 set of speakers. Meanwhile, the local guy didn't cover his nut that day despite spending half a day with you switching cables and wires and receivers and speakers and explaining impedance and THD and phase matching and room acoustics and... I think that's why so many high end theater stores are gone.

    I wrote an article about this in a trade magazine (Shooting Industry) that got a few months of discussion. The dealers that responded say they face the same thing. Maybe if LGSs went to a museum fee model it'd help. You pay to go to the zoo. You pay to go to the museum. And those are subsidized by tax dollars! So how about if you want to see this scope, you pay $25. If you don't like it or you buy it online, no problem. You paid for the service. And if you buy it from me, I'll give you the $25 toward the scope. If you didn't like it, well, you just saved a $3000 mistake!

    The other version of this is if the manfs would send us FREE samples so potential customers could fondle the stuff. Then I'm just out the time for my employees maybe. For me to carry Nightforce, I have to buy in $25,000 and sell $50,000 per year. With only about 12%-15% gross margin, if I have to match after tax Optics Planet, I'm at 5%-7%. If you pay with a credit card, I'm at 2%-4% net. But I had to stock $25,000 worth of stuff. That's why you can't find a NF in a store to sample. Sales tax parity will help with that. But if NF would send me $20k in "consignment scopes", I could stock them and then try to deal. Kahles is only a 5 unit buy in so it's a little cheaper. But there again if you try my awesome new Kahles 5-25, I try to sell it to you at MAP pricing, and then you buy it online to save $350 in sales tax, how will I ever recover my $15k investment?

    If you have a solution on how to work the museum model into profitability, me and about 10,000 other LGSs will pay for your advice!

    I have a lot of customers who graciously say "I'd rather give you the money...if you can match the price." If they already know what they want and I can match it, I'll do it. But you just can't afford to stock inventory with the "match out the door and eat the sales tax" model. It's not sustainable. Most people have no idea (or care) that gross margins on good priced/MAP guns and optics is only about 10-12%. Wilson Combat is 10-15%. Glock is under 15%. Nightforce is under 15% unless you do 100k/yr. You'd have to charge a handling fee or demo fee or consultation fee. And I suggest the speaker stores maybe do the same thing. Hell, I had to pay to use the bathroom in Harrod's in London, or have a receipt showing I bought something. Even those socialists draw the line for freeloading somewhere!
     

    A & P

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    AP, that's a cool 1911. Thanks for sharing! View attachment 145879

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    If you ever have the time, I strongly suggest taking the Bob Marvel 1911 build class. 8 day class. $4000 (when I took it). But the parts alone (included) are about $1400. Amazing amount of knowledge. When you finish your gun, you'll have the equivalent of a $4000 custom 1911. So it's like free knowledge. I think a few other guys are teaching similar classes if you can't find the Marvel class. Incidentally I asked Bob how long it'd take him to build it. He said about 5 hours. Of course he's done it forever. I didn't even know how to use the file when I started. He said finishing a gun takes 2 days (polishing and other finishing work, of which we did very little), but only under a day for the fitting. Amazing. 8 days...8-10 hours per day for me. I felt like that Far Side comic where the kid in the class raises his hand and asked to be dismissed because his brain was full.
     
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