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  • benenglish

    Just Another Boomer
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    7   0   0
    Nov 22, 2011
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    The other version of this is if the manfs would send us FREE samples so potential customers could fondle the stuff.
    That's basically the way it works in really high-end audio. If you're contemplating spending $200K+ (or even $30K+, if you're smart) on a pair of speakers, there are about a half-dozen shows every year where you can go to hear them. You just plan a vacation around auditioning the gear. The manufacturers know that almost no one will actually stock their incredibly expensive stuff so they take on the cost of exhibiting at a show several times a year so that prospective buyers can hear their products.

    Those really expensive speakers (and amps and turntables, etc.) will have some dealers, though, although it's frequently just two or three dealers in the entire country. If you're really interested in the product, you can book a flight and go to the dealer where you get served some wine and given enough time to make a decision.

    At the highest end (say, a pair of Wilson WAMM Master Chronosonic speakers for ~$685K, plus the cost of subwoofers), when you make the purchase the factory sends a couple of engineers to your house to install them, set up mics, run tests, and make sure they are tuned to the room and your preferences.

    This isn't really comparable to gun sales, is it? :)

    Two postscripts -

    1. I have about 35,000 LPs. I kinda go down a rabbit hole when the subject turns to audio.

    2. I got into audio because of CDs. (This story might actually have some bearing on the subject at hand.) Phillips advertised CDs as "Perfect sound forever." I wanted that. I had too much experience sitting in the middle of bands and orchestras; record players all just sounded awful to me. But "Perfect sound forever"? Sign me up!

    In retrospect, we know that early CDs were garbage. They sounded awful. I took my test CD (Telarc's "Four Seasons", of course) into Audio ProPhiles in Houston where the nice lady let me play it. The player was by Phase Linear, the electronics by Krell, and the speakers were the original Apogees. Literally within one bar of the music starting, I shoved my fingers in my ears and screamed at her to turn it off. It was painfully awful.

    She looked at me kinda funny for a minute than introduced me to their Goldmund Reference turntable with a top-end (Koetsu, I believe) cartridge. That was a $30K turntable back in 1982.

    She let me spend the afternoon playing records. I was in heaven. I've been devoted to analog (LPs and a few hundred reel-to-reel tapes) ever since.

    The moral? There's power in letting customers try before they buy. How to translate that for low-dollar goods like average firearms, though, is something about which I have no clue.
    Target Sports
     

    V-Tach

    Watching While the Sheep Graze
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    Is a range a very profitable endeavor?

    The gun shop only model is very tough to make it consistently month to month, imho...add a range and you are much better off....
    Of course location, location, location.......

    Add courses, private instruction ect, it all adds up.....not an inexpensive endeavor, but it can be done reasonably. Many ranges build their ranges too large with unrealistic expectations of how many customers will use the range daily.
     

    A & P

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    Aug 4, 2014
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    Tomball/Magnolia
    Is a range a very profitable endeavor?
    Funny enough I was on the phone with a range company this morning. Here's how it plays out:

    The container versions that are made in Conex containers: $233,000 for a two lane, 15yard system.
    If I supply a building and they just dump rubber in it, the rubber is $1200/linear foot wide. Two 4' lanes wide? $10,000 plus shipping.
    Air handling, ballistic baffles, ... and the list goes on.
    Target retrieval system (basically a garage door opener), $3200.

    All of the expense aside, though, I'd worry about the political risk. Remember when Obummer said, "I won't outlaw coal. I'll just make it too expensive to mine!" Remember when Hillary said, "On my first day in office I'll add a 25% ammo tax! That'll stop gun violence!" That's what I'm afraid of!

    I do need a lane that I can test fire rifles, shoot my own load development, and maybe do a one-on-one instruction and CHL/LTC shoots. Not sure if I'd open it to daily fee public use. Also, we don't own the property so you're investing in someone else's building. Ranges are so specialized that you couldn't recover the cost if you sold it. If you build a store for retail, well, you can close up and sell the store to any other kind of retail business. But how would you sell an expensive range buildout to anything other than another range? And if you're out of business because of some elected official, then the whole market is dead.

    OSHA, EPA, etc are other concerns. The Gestapo of the DNC. Insurance is, surprisingly, not the biggest hurdle!

    We can't do outside because of where we're at.

    The one thing a range can do is help supplement your retail. As people asked, if we had a range and could get range demos, then it might help sell guns. We could rent a gun for $20 (plus you'd have to shoot our ammo in our guns) and if you wanted to buy it you'd get that toward the purchase for example. We could do classes which is high margin (just time). We could test rifle builds (saving time going elsewhere). So there are a lot of benefits, but I'm still not sure it makes sense economically. Even super low budget, I bet it'd cost me $50k for a single 15yd lane to do what I'm thinking. Will it generate $50k in additional net income? Dunno. Could I spend more and make it a rentable/daily fee range? Maybe. Will I recover the extra cost? Dunno.

    Of course, then you have the "what type of setup?" I posted in another thread to solicit what people would want in a range. Of course, it's largely what you'd imagine. $10/all day, any gun, etc. Low low cost. Great air handling. No limits on time or guns or number of friends. And free gun rentals and ammo too. Okay, kidding a bit. But a range that charges $20/hour is gouging. A range that charges $10 plus $4/gun is penalizing you for having more than one gun. A range that charges $15/lane plus $5/person extra is gouging. People don't want to feel rushed so hourly fees are unfair. You can't have more than one person shoot at a time so per person is unfair. You can't shoot more than one gun at a time so per gun is unfair. I'm not sure what the ideal fee structure would be either. Saddle River is a very nice range but yet people tell me they're crazy expensive. $20/hr I think during peak times. Less off-peak. SGA on 45 is $15/hr I think. Pretty basic range. ASC goes out to 600yds but they charge a base plus per gun as I recall.

    I think I'm more inclined to do one person per lane (if we even have more than one lane) and just a fee per hour per lane. You wanna shoot more? Preload your magazines I guess. No complicated memberships or per gun per person concepts.

    ben: re $600k speakers. That reminds me of when I first learned about nice guns. I saw a Benelli (that I own now) for $1400. Thought that was crazy. But then I saw a Browning Citori for $2500! Who'd pay that!? Then I saw a pro shooter with a Perazzi. I looked it up. $40k! I looked on Gunbroker to see if any were for sale and I found a 4 gun set from Perazzi: $280,000. Talking about flying out to see speakers, I have a very nice, humble client who "went to the car show" last year. It was in Geneva. He got the private invite from Ferrari. Then he went to Italy to pick out the stitching and other features of his new Ferrari that he was invited to buy because he owned other Ferraris. It's a whole different world than the one I live in!
     

    V-Tach

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    Our 6 lane, 25 yard rubber berm, concrete tilt wall construction on an existing building + the adjoining lot...... total investment was 260K. Did a lot of the work ourselves. Not state of the art everything, but a nice clean, well ventilated heated and A/C range....
     

    LOCKHART

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    Apr 29, 2014
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    Lockhart, Texas
    I didn't mean to post the above. I was going to say that growing up in Austin, in the '50's, there were only two stores I remember dealing in guns, Petmeckys on Congress Avenue and Davis hardware right across the street. Later on in 1960 I believe, Jack McBride opened his store out of the back of his house. I started dealing with Jack in 1964, and watched over the years as his children, one by one, came into the business. I can say that I am friends with all the McBride family. I supported their business as long as I lived in Austin, and I still buy from them when I am in their area. This is truly a family owned business, and Joe still gives me good deals. YMMV.
     

    Inspector43

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    Colorado County, Texas
    My wife and I do as much local shopping as we can. We live in a small Texas town and buy our appliances, home improvement products, and any hunting and fishing supplies right here.
     

    LOCKHART

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    Well, I live in Lockhart, and until recently, we had no place except Walmart to buy guns. Now Livengood feed store is selling firearms. I haven't been in to check their wares, but others have told me they have a pretty good selection.
     

    Texasgordo

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    Well, I live in Lockhart, and until recently, we had no place except Walmart to buy guns. Now Livengood feed store is selling firearms. I haven't been in to check their wares, but others have told me they have a pretty good selection.
    I bought a Glock 42 there and had a positive experience. The staff is helpful and answered any questions that I had.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
     

    A & P

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    Well, I live in Lockhart, and until recently, we had no place except Walmart to buy guns. Now Livengood feed store is selling firearms. I haven't been in to check their wares, but others have told me they have a pretty good selection.
    Ahhh, Livengood. Funny (not really) story.

    We have a feed store. When we thought about adding guns four years ago, we went and visited several feed stores who also sell guns. Livengood was one of them. It was neat to see that. They have guns and ammo on one side and feed store stuff on the other. It's strangely set up in a strip center and you almost have to know it's there. Livengood's mill is in Lockhart just down the street. I think it's the only Livengood store that sells guns. I was just getting open so I didn't know how much certain things should/could cost. I saw two 1lb jars of Varget. I told my wife "you can't find this stuff anywhere!" So I bought them. $41.95 each. When Varget started coming back available, I put some on the shelf for $31.95. Yep, $10 less than what I paid less than a year prior. Obviously my wholesale costs is even less than that. I almost sold one of my two pounds to someone but I just couldn't stomach a $10 hit. So, they did have it...but they pulled a CTD on me and I paid out the ass for it. Supply and demand, I suppose.

    So then we started carrying Livengood feed. There is a main store down the road from us and they asked us to be a satellite store. We sold hay to many of their customers so instead of having us solicit those people to switch feeds I guess they liked us carrying their product. Then one day I walked in to get some feed for a customer and they told me the price. I said, "did it jump up??" The asst manager (the kind of jerk you normally complain about in a LGS actually...although that store isn't a gun store) said, "they're not selling to you wholesale anymore. They're giving you barn price." "When did that happen?" "Not sure. I just know you're not buying wholesale now." "Nobody called me on it. You guys asked us to carry your feed. I have a customer coming to pay the normal price for this stuff." "Oh well (f-off look on his face)." So, ya, screw Livengood. Not a fan of how they handled that. If their guns are priced like their Varget, then they're the LGS that people complain about.
     

    A & P

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    Here it is. Bought at Livengood in Lockhart. My memory was off by a few cents. Hate to load it just because it's so expensive! Only about 2000gr left in this jar I'm estimating. And it was at the peak of the powder crisis about 3-4 years ago. I've been loading 6.5 more using RL17 and haven't been loading 308 so this is still here.

    In their defense, though, reloaders are commonly online shoppers so it is hard to make money in reloading stuff. We carry a bunch of stuff (70 skus of powder, 100 or so bullets, even gold medal match primers), but I reload (couldn't tell from the dust on my stuff) so I have an interest in it and it only takes up about 16 linear feet on our shelves. As far as I know, I'm one of only about a half dozen stores that carries much reloading stuff within 20 miles.

    Online shopping killed off most reloading shops (apropos for this thread!) I'm guessing. But it's a natural fit. Most reloading customers know what they want. Online you find fair prices and huge selection. Our only advantage is absorbing the hazmat and shipping for the guy just wanting to buy 1 or 2 lb of powder or 1000 primers and doesn't want to spend a week trying to organize a group buy. It's not like selling guns where you do a 30 minute consultation and the customer then buys online with your "free" information.

    Maybe I'm an idiot for stocking reloading stuff. Should have seen the trends in the market. I remember going in Carter's once and my jaw dropped. They had a grid system with probably every bullet you could imagine. I'm sure they had over 500 skus of bullets, and 2-15 boxes of each! That was well before my FFL. I went in there a few years later and they had reduced to maybe 10% of that inventory. Almost like they got out the reloading business. Like video killed the radio star, online killed the B&M reloading shop.

    expensive varget.JPG
     
    Last edited:

    A & P

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    The guy really doesn't fathom paragraphs ^. Crikey!
    Fixed it for ya.

    My fingers type what my brain is thinking in almost real time. (fast fingers or slow brain...take your pick). I think this contributes to the long posts. And I guess my brain doesn't think in paragraphs. Kinda like a boulder rolling down a hill. Just picks up speed until it hits the bottom and then stops (and hits post reply).
     

    avvidclif

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    Aug 30, 2017
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    Van Zandt County
    I shop my LGS and mainly buy accy's and a few guns. Most of mine are purchased from an individual and it's not the cost. Main reason is there is no record anywhere of me owning it. That's for the govt if they ever decide to go stupid. No record, no knowledge. That's why I refuse to deal with any individual that requires ID and/or a bill of sale. And for those who say I just want to see your CHL/DL not copy it I have a friend who has a photographic memory. One look and he can tell you every detail several months later. Nope.
     
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