Air travel?

I just flew in, and boy are my arms tired.

SOMEONE had to say it. Also, Archie Bunker once said the solution to hijacking was to issue all the passengers a weapon, therefore taking away the whata you call it superiority of the highjackers.

Supposed to be funny, and ridiculous, but actually, very true when viewed in a non- Hollywood liberal light. Why I feel safer now without carrying than I ever did in my life. The low lifes never know who is armed now, and will shoot their ass if they step out of line.

I have got a bunch of people watching my back.

I take it you are just asking about traveling, but since you posted in the CHL section I am presuming you mean with firearms? If not, see my first answer below. If you did mean traveling with guns, see the last paragraph...

I fly 1-3 trips a month for work, in fact I just got back from Germany 12 hours ago, so I've gotten a routine on packing and what to carry. The amount of stuff I take has decreased considerably over the past seven-and-a-half years I've been in this job to the point that I have extra room in my checked lugged. I have learned to carry at least enough toiletries and extra clothes (usually just t-shirts as jeans are good for that period) to survive 1-2 days without my checked bag. I also carry enough snacks to survive on for that time. I also take my Kindle tablet loaded with movies, books and games to pass the time; as well as charging cables and plugs (don't forget converter plugs if going overseas, and the right ones!). Additionally, I pack the necessary items I need for work (gloves, flashlights, binoculars, pens, etc.). I have a checklist of items I need to add (and remove) from my bag before I fly, as I use it for work every day as well. The "remove" part is everything that won't get through TSA.

As for my experience getting through security, having Global Entry and TSA Pre✓ makes life a lot easier, at least in this country. Not having to remove shoes, belts, laptops, electric devices and other items, as well as standing in that blasted machine in the "frozen jumping jack" position while it checks your prostate makes the cost well worth it! Of course I still have to deal with that overseas, but at least in the US I get to go through the shorter line at security and am able to get through it much faster and easier.

As for traveling with firearms or other items needing to be checked, I would recommend adding an additional half-hour at the airline counter for those. That is where you declare the item, and they may put you in a separate room where TSA will verify everything is in compliance with standards. The only "issue" I get is when I need non-weapons checked, TSA gets easily confused as to why I want them to inspect the item beforehand but my organization has found that small precaution can save a huge hassle at the other end.

All in all I find air travel pretty easy, but that is likely due to the fact that I fly a lot. I often see people in the security line that appear to have absolutely no idea of what they are doing. One common sight are women with knee-high lace-up boots that take ten minutes to unlace, but usually it's people who can't comply with simple instructions. Before you walk away from the conveyor belt for the x-ray machine, pat yourself down and make sure you don't have any items such as a wallet, cell phone, etc. on you. If there is any doubt as to whether an item will trigger the scanner you are about to walk through, but it in your bag! And it is a much better idea to place such items into your bag instead of the little dog bowls or trays they give, as often I see people walk away leaving their stuff at security. If you place it in your backpack, purse or bag, you will still have it with you. People are always rushed through security, but if necessary take a second and make sure you have everything before you walk away. Most of the time they are more concerned with getting their shoes back on than they are their personal effects. A buddy of mine watched Nicolas Cage almost forget a Rolex while going through security in Vegas...

Cheers! M2

OP , you mentioned CHL
Are you asking about checking a firearm?
That is really a quick easy thing to do.
It only adds a few extra minutes

I have not taken a firearm with me since my Alaska trip because I don’t like to check bags.
I try to fit everything into a carry on and a back pack so I don’t worry about my baggage

Yes, thinking about bringing the carry piece. I have what I need to secure it, just concerned with time being tight coming home. I plan to look at the travel time from the venue to the airport...

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I fly every couple of weeks.

I have not flown with my carry gun yet. Phoenix is in my territory. Any tips or experience flying from DFW to Phoenix with a gun would be appreciated.


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My youngest son is a Police Officer. Married a girl from Arizona. Flew out a couple years ago and got there from DFW just fine. Coming home he ran into a TSA agent that was having a bad day. Would not let him use the Plano carry case he had used to get there (and had used 6 or 7 times before). Son shows his Police ID and the agent said he thought it could be forged. (at the time my son looked very young). His wife was staying so she takes the gun to her parents' house and returns by car later. TSA dude was a real jerk about it all. Son files a complaint and was told the agents had a lot of discretion. That particular agent exercised his often. Basically and anti-gun fed employee. OK for him BUT not for you. Son got a pelican case for travel and no problems since.

As I and others have said above. Depends on the day, the protocols, the airport policy and the agent's temperament.

Flying from DFW to Las Vegas in March and then driving into Utah to Zion National Park for a week, then reverse that trip. I don't foresee any problems checking my carry gun when going through DFW but I wonder about Las Vegas as I don't trust any states that do not recognize Texas LTC like Nevada.

It sounds like one should plan on up to an extra hour in case the TSA agent you deal with is a pain in the rear, that and make sure you have all your approved cases/locks compliant.

One thing I do wonder, for the ammunition I know that any ammunition must be be in factory boxes, what I'm not sure of is if it must be sealed. I plan on landing in LV, and when I hit Utah load up my pistol and then unload it when I leave to go back to LV to fly home.

POLICESTATE said:

One thing I do wonder, for the ammunition I know that any ammunition must be be in factory boxes, what I'm not sure of is if it must be sealed. I plan on landing in LV, and when I hit Utah load up my pistol and then unload it when I leave to go back to LV to fly home.

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It actually doesn't need to be sealed or in factory boxes, just cannot be in the weapon.

I've had no problems from TSA with loaded mags in the (same) locked case, but the weapon itself needs to be clear.

Standard IANAL disclaimer applies. Obviously.
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Executive Summary

The simplest way to avoid problems when traveling with a carry pistol and ammo is to bring along a box of factory ammo and no other ammo.
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Long Version

CyberWolf said:

It actually doesn't need to be sealed or in factory boxes, just cannot be in the weapon.

I've had no problems from TSA with loaded mags in the (same) locked case, but the weapon itself needs to be clear.

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Yes, no, and maybe. There are subtleties to packing ammunition that tend to elude people. I'm glad you've had no problem but your post simplifies the situation so much someone could get in trouble following it.

FAA/DOT (hereinafter, FAA) regulations control all this. The FAA summarizes those regulations thusly:

Ammunition must be securely packed in boxes or other devices specifically designed to carry small amounts of ammunition. Ammunition clips and magazines must also be securely boxed so no ammunition is loose or exposed.

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That doesn't really sound like it was written by someone who knows firearms, does it? When dealing with people who don't know or want to know about guns on firearms-related matters, caution is always a good idea. While you have had no problems with loaded magazines, other people have.

A strictly literal reading of the grammar in the summary above makes it clear that it's fine to have ammunition in magazines but the magazines must then be inside boxes. That's not the way it's usually interpreted but you never know what sort of dummy you'll run into at the airport.

The FAA summary of how to pack firearms and ammo is here and in other places.

More importantly, the controlling regulations are here. They say roughly the same thing:

Small arms ammunition for personal use carried by a crewmember or passenger in checked baggage only, if securely packed in boxes or other packagings specifically designed to carry small amounts of ammunition. Ammunition clips and magazines must also be securely boxed.

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So what's that somewhat ambiguous language mean?

In practical terms, meaning "Do you want to fly today?", it means whatever the enforcing agency decides it means at the time, at the place, in the mind of the particular employee assigned to do the enforcement.

At that point, you're dealing with the TSA.

The TSA policies are supposed to just universally and with perfect consistency ensure that the FAA regulations are upheld. In practice, they screw up. A lot.

For example, the regulation cited above is changed on the TSA web site and summarized, in part, as

Firearm magazines and ammunition clips, whether loaded or empty, must be securely boxed or included within a hard-sided case containing an unloaded firearm.

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Notice the subtle difference? The FAA (which controls in law) says

...magazines must...be securely boxed.

Click to expand...

The TSA (which administers, thus controls in practice) says they

...must be securely boxed OR included within a hard-sided case...

Click to expand...

(Emphasis added, obviously.)

That extra language was added by the TSA just to make their job easier. If you get crossways with the TSA, they can fall back on the wording of the legally controlling FAA regulations and prohibit loaded magazines unless they are also in boxes. (And, as I pointed out earlier, even that interpretation requires a literal reading of the grammar and, therefore, is sufficiently sketchy as to be unreliable.)

In every case dealing with every government agency, it's critically important to remember that they DO NOT have to comply with what their web site says because their job is NOT complying with their web site. Their job is enforcing applicable laws and regs, in this case FAA regs. Government web sites say how the agency does or wants to do business and that's generally in line with the law. However, if conflict arises, the law and regs control. The web site, what the agency rep said on the phone, what the public affairs officer says in front of TV cameras, and what the particular government employee in front of you at the time said or did all have approximately zero legal weight.

If that seems like a stretch, consider this. On that same page, the TSA says

Only the passenger should retain the key or combination to the lock unless TSA personnel request the key to open the firearm container to ensure compliance with TSA regulations.

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To back up their position, the TSA links to 49 CFR 1540.5. Yet, if you actually go read the regs, they say nothing like that. In fact, they say:

The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the passenger retains the key or combination.

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Period. That's all.

There is NO exception in the FAA regs allowing the TSA to separate you from your key to your locked baggage containing firearms. In fact, if the TSA asks for your key, they are asking you to commit a crime, to violate FAA regs. From the TSA viewpoint, why shouldn't they? Their butt isn't on the line; yours is.

Yet there are airports that have been laid out such that it's inconvenient to bring the passenger and key to the baggage for inspection so the TSA solved the problem by asking passengers to give up their key. (I always hope those locations have been remodeled, fixing this problem, but I don't stay current with the state of every airport.) In airports like that, the crime of giving up control of the key is committed and overlooked just for the convenience of the TSA. There have been horror stories about what happens when you give up your key and let the TSA rummage around in your guns without you being present.

Yet, if you don't comply you might be writing your own horror story. If you start citing FAA regs, the old question of "Do you want to fly today?" will come at you. Yes, the TSA may routinely require people to break the law but that doesn't matter in any practical sense. In the moment, if you actually want to get to your destination, you break the law. Everybody does it because the TSA requires you to break the law when it's too inconvenient for them to uphold it.

(I reiterate: I hope every airport in the country where this situation has existed has been remodeled and the problem no longer exists. I'm not confident that has been done, however. If it has, the TSA web site should no longer be telling people it's OK for the TSA to separate them from their key. Whether the problem is in the real or the virtual world, there's obviously still a problem.)

If something goes wrong in all this, who's going to suffer? The TSA or the passenger? You get one guess.

Bottom line - When traveling with firearms and ammo, know the law, know the practicalities, know the procedures at the airports you'll pass through, cover your backside, and decide beforehand just how paranoid you want to be. Personally, I'm only comfortable with dialing my paranoia up to 11 when I fly with firearms.

Bottom, bottom line - When traveling with just your EDC pistol, simply carry a box of factory ammo and no other ammo. It'll make everyone's lives simpler.

Postscript - There are legal subtleties and outlier situations that are not covered here and may conflict with what I've written. No duh. This is a forum post; it's not a chapter in a legal reference.

Post Postscript - Be happy I didn't decide to include another dozen paragraphs on traveling with handloaded ammo.

Ben, it states that loaded mags must be in a box.
Must the box be different than the gun case, or does inside the gun case count as being in a "box"?

ZX9RCAM said:

Ben, it states that loaded mags must be in a box.
Must the box be different than the gun case, or does inside the gun case count as being in a "box"?

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The regs don't specify.

If the TSA agent looks at loaded magazines inside a gun case and decides that the gun case falls within the definition of "box", then you're good to go. In my experience, most will do that. That's why Cyber Wolf has traveled with loaded mags in his gun case and no problems.

OTOH, if the TSA agent feels, based on their training and reading of the regs, that "box" means a separate, cardboard (or whatever) box inside the gun case, then you wind up throwing away ammunition to make your flight.

This can actually start to get complicated when dealing with handloads. Back when FAA regs used to specify "manufacturers original packaging" or something close to that (It's been a long time since this was the case and my memory isn't that great.), some handloaders going to big matches resorted to printing labels that showed themselves as the manufacturer. They then bought blank, new cardboard cartridge boxes and used those labels to seal the boxes closed. That was the only sure way they could get past the TSA after some competitors got stopped and told they couldn't fly with ammo in MTM boxes because those weren't acceptable packaging.

benenglish said:

Standard
.....

Yes, no, and maybe. There are subtleties to packing ammunition that tend to elude people. I'm glad you've had no problem but your post simplifies the situation so much someone could get in trouble following it.

......

If something goes wrong in all this, who's going to suffer? The TSA or the passenger? You get one guess.

Bottom line - When traveling with firearms and ammo, know the law, know the practicalities, know the procedures at the airports you'll pass through, cover your backside, and decide beforehand just how paranoid you want to be. Personally, I'm only comfortable with dialing my paranoia up to 11 when I fly with firearms.
....

Click to expand...

You are of course correct, that was an oversimplification of the many subtleties/technicalities involved, and assumed knowledge is an easy trap which anyone can fall into...

That said, while I usually rank pretty high on the paranoia scale (job related hazard), this has never been an issue for me - but the key point (which you have indicated) is to know the law/regs.

My standard approach to this (which has worked fine for me for all domestic air travel) is a small Pelican hard case (Pelican 1075) with formed cutouts made for weapon and mags. The weapon is stored empty with loaded mags, and the custom-shaped cutouts keep it all secure. This gets two seperate combo locks, and goes into checked bag on top where it can be accessed easily.

I believe this meets all applicable storage reqs, and the combo locks help preclude any BS about having to give up a key (was actually going to mention in original post NOT to use so-called TSA-compliant locks), and being small enough to store inside main checked bag helps avoid screaming "steal me!" as it makes it's way through the baggage system.

Finally, I believe the comment(s) on time/comfort-level are also spot on. I've actually found myself in several situations over the years where I've been exposed to aggressive, belligerent, and/or incompetent TSA agents (lots of good/professional ones as well, to be sure); however, never missed a flight as a result, the worst outcome I've had to deal with was when a room-temp-IQ agent insisted on personally reassembling my lockpick set after inspection and sent tools flying everywhere, and have on several occasions been able to successfully have an ill-educated TSA/Airport employee (some folks like to try making up their own rules) overruled/reprimanded on the spot and ordered to stand down (including one instance involving badged LEO and a belligerent/hostile airport employee).

As always, each person's experiences will be different, but considering that the older I get the less sh*t I'm willing to put up with and volume of air travel required in recent years, I've found that a combination of knowing and following the laws/regs, being able to clearly/calmy articulate such, and remaining polite/unagitated during the process, (and assuming enough time prior to flight that no rush is required), allows for some addional leeway in not having to put up with unnecessary abuse.

ETA: have never flown with hand-loaded ammo, so no experience with that at all. Also, only ever fly with a sidearm; any travel involving long-guns means a road trip for me...

CWolf,
Just to ascertain, you have a laptop case (pelican 1075) you use?
It sure seems thin.

ZX9RCAM said:

CWolf,
Just to ascertain, you have a laptop case (pelican 1075) you use?
It sure seems thin.

Click to expand...

It is thin, and light, but that's one of the reasons why I like these cases...

https://www.pelican.com/us/en/product/cases/pistol-case/hardback/p1075


Here's a pic of one I've been using for a number of years now without any issues...Because it's so thin/light (size reference included in pics), I can just throw it on top of my clothes in a checked bag (makes it easy for TSA to access/inspect, and to retrieve at destination once off AP property):






In the first pic, you can see places immediately adjacent to the latch on either side for a lock, I just use dual matching-combo locks. Sometimes get asked to open at initial inspection, but usually don't. Mags are always full, chamber always empty (when in transit), and typically feel no need to carry extra ammo when going with this option...


On a related note, I've more recently picked up the following little beauty, but this one is quite a bit heavier (although similar size), and serves a more specialized use than general domestic air travel:



Specifically, this setup is optimal for complying with the law in places like CA/NV (not sure about east-coast commie beachheads, haven't looked at those recently) while driving in-state. CA for example requires pistols in-vehicle to be locked in a container (console/glove-box does not count) and fully unloaded with no 'inserted' magazine, though they can be stored together.

Shotguns/rifles have a different requirement, but since a chewed-up pop-tart practically meets the CA legal definition of 'Assault Weapon' and non-(CA)-AW rifles/scatterguns generally have greater response-time & maneuverability concerns (must also be kept unloaded), this option can be anchored to the (any) vehicle interior, meets the ridiculous CA legal reqs, and assuming strategic placement still allows the weapon to be retrieved, loaded, and chambered within about 2-3 seconds should the need arise...

CyberWolf said:

I...was actually going to mention in original post NOT to use so-called TSA-compliant locks...

Click to expand...

A literal reading of the DOT/FAA regs is that using a TSA-compliant lock on a gun case is a violation of the law because it automatically gives control of the lock to persons other than the passenger.

CyberWolf said:

The weapon is stored empty with loaded mags, and the custom-shaped cutouts keep it all secure. This gets two seperate combo locks, and goes into checked bag on top where it can be accessed easily.

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That's pretty close to perfect in my estimation.

Off-topic, but circa 1986 I was briefly responsible for storage and transportation of firearms for the U.S. Olympic Shooting Team (well, mostly just the training teams...) and that was the first time I saw this method. Every one of the pistol shooters with their incredibly delicate, customized pistols packed them inside a small, locked case. They declared that case then packed it in the center of a huge suitcase packed tightly with clothes. (This was way before bag limits, obviously.) By doing this, they not only cut down on theft they also kept their pistols safe(r) from rough handling.

They were pretty smart about traveling with pistols. I could say the same about you, good sir.

CyberWolf said:

On a related note, I've more recently picked up the following...

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By custom, all simplex locks ship with the same combination. I assume you've changed the combo on that one?

A few years ago, the tellers at my local bank got enclosed in a bullet resistant cage. The manager went white when she came out of the cage and I told her the combination to get in. That was fun...

benenglish said:

...They were pretty smart about traveling with pistols. I could say the same about you, good sir.

Click to expand...

Thank you

benenglish said:

By custom, all simplex locks ship with the same combination. I assume you've changed the combo on that one?

A few years ago, the tellers at my local bank got enclosed in a bullet resistant cage. The manager went white when she came out of the cage and I told her the combination to get in. That was fun...

Click to expand...

Hehehe...yeah, the looks on people's faces sometimes can be epic in those types of situations!

So anyway, that's a great point on the lock...I picked that unit (over some far better known production brands) for a couple reasons, but first and foremost was lock/lid speed and minimal mechanical parts (mech lock components seeming to be the most common failure mode in alternatives); I believe that only the latches and key-based backup lock components are mechanical.

Initial setup was just to charge, check/flash firmware, reset & test new combo (there may have been a chance to set a UI password, dont recall exactly), and disable the radio.

Last step (and something repeated periodically), was to check bluetooth to make sure BT radio was off (good thing, as first time I tried disabling it didn't take and needed a redo...). Finally, and just cuz I can be a bit paranoid at times, checked it with an SDR (software defined radio) to make sure all was quiet.

Tex62 said:

I don't fly much and haven't since I have had my CHL, about 10 years.

I am wondering how long it takes to get your bag checked by TSA and through security. I know the details on how to pack.

I'm curious as my return trip will be tight for time.

Thanks!

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

I hope you are not talking about taking the gun in a carryon. It has to be in checked baggage, and must be in a TSA approved case with TSA locks.

tomballpa said:

...gun...in checked baggage...must be...with TSA locks.

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Guys, I love your business and your support of this site so please don't take this the wrong way. I mean no disrespect at all. But...

This part of your advice is completely wrong. Never use TSA locks when traveling with guns in checked baggage. It's a direct violation of DOT/FAA regs that require that only the passenger have access to the key or combination to the lock on checked baggage containing firearms.

For a long-winded explanation, see the last 1/3 of post #29 in this thread, starting where it says "If that seems like a stretch..." That section is then summarized in post #35.