Consequences

Sam7sf · Jun 15, 2019

txinvestigator said:
To everyone: So you are in a restaurant eating with your parents and a guy drives his truck through the front window, gets out and starts shooting people. What would you do?
He hasn't targeted you yet.

My instinctive response is to grab my child and put him behind a barrier if one is available. If it worked out that way and I’m still alive I’ll look for other kids or folks that are near that cover.

If I die I die. Looking for cover and helping others is just an instinctive thing. I mean it’s a situation I haven’t seen in person and can’t say if it happens (god forbid) that I’ll have a gun on me and even if I do, do I have a clear shot? If not, gotta try to help people man. Cover cover cover.

txinvestigator · Jun 15, 2019

Sam7sf said:
My instinctive response is to grab my child and put him behind a barrier if one is available. If it worked out that way and I’m still alive I’ll look for other kids or folks that are near that cover.

If I die I die. Looking for cover and helping others is just an instinctive thing. I mean it’s a situation I haven’t seen in person and can’t say if it happens (god forbid) that I’ll have a gun on me and even if I do, do I have a clear shot? If not, gotta try to help people man. Cover cover cover.

You are not there with your kid

avvidclif · Jun 15, 2019

In that, only that described scenario, no changes allowed. If he's shooting in my direction, mistake, I will return fire. Immediately. If shooting at others, bigger mistake, my first shot probably won't miss, center mass, with several right behind it. Dead shooter = no cover needed. When sirens are heard and scene secure unload gun and place it on counter with the removed magazine and ammo beside it. Back off from it and put hands on top of head. Stand still

Sam7sf · Jun 15, 2019

txinvestigator said:
You are not there with your kid

Lol what is that like?
Ok though, just my parents no kid. I love my parents so I’ll do what I can.

Edit: that will be all the replies from me on this thread. I shouldn’t have commented.

m5215 · Jun 15, 2019

txinvestigator said:
Texas allows use of force and deadly force to protect an innocent third person where appropriate. See chapter 9 of the Texas Penal Code.

Texas law also provides civil immunity for a justified use of force or deadly force. Immunity does not prevent a lawsuit, but does provide that if the civil court determines you were justified under chapter 9 that you are not liable.

PENAL CODE
TITLE 2. GENERAL PRINCIPLES OF CRIMINAL RESPONSIBILITY
CHAPTER 9. JUSTIFICATION EXCLUDING CRIMINAL RESPONSIBILITY
SUBCHAPTER A. GENERAL PROVISIONS

https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/SOTWDocs/PE/htm/PE.9.htm

ZX9RCAM · Jun 15, 2019

Sam7sf said:
Lol what is that like?

Wouldn’t change my thinking. Cover, help out, look for opportunities to stop the shooter.

While I understand where you are coming from, it's a scenario, not real life...

:green:

Bithabus · Jun 15, 2019

txinvestigator said:
To everyone: So you are in a restaurant eating with your parents and a guy drives his truck through the front window, gets out and starts shooting people. What would you do?
He hasn't targeted you yet.

What color is the truck?

easy rider · Jun 15, 2019

m5215 said:
PENAL CODE
TITLE 2. GENERAL PRINCIPLES OF CRIMINAL RESPONSIBILITY
CHAPTER 9. JUSTIFICATION EXCLUDING CRIMINAL RESPONSIBILITY
SUBCHAPTER A. GENERAL PROVISIONS

https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/SOTWDocs/PE/htm/PE.9.htm

That's all fine and dandy, but do you keep a copy of that for just such situations? And if so, would you take the time to reference that in said situation? It all comes down to survival. Normal humans have an instinct to survive, whether it's by the book or not.

candcallen · Jun 15, 2019

Theres risk in everything you do.

Protecting you and your loved ones may require engaging. A active shooter is pretty clear, an escalated fight in a store you see part of isnt. Any protections you might have require you to act legally. In some places the term reasonably is used and its subjective to whomever is judging after the fact.

In the twin peaks incident people with families not affiliated with an actual criminal enterprise biker gang were charged just like they were because they displayed a weapon in preparation to respond to an obviously deadly situation. I'm not sure about the legality of carry in there regarding the 51% law as I have never been there but the point is lots of bad crap happend to people in a chaotic situation. It's an example of why these things arent black and white but you better be sure to make them so when you account for your actions. Also, you may have to justify presenting your weapon in the first place so be prepared for that.

Training and knowledge. Keeps you alive and out of prison.

easy rider · Jun 15, 2019

candcallen said:
Theres risk in everything you do.

Protecting you and your loved ones may require engaging. A active shooter is pretty clear, an escalated fight in a store you see part of isnt. Any protections you might have require you to act legally. In some places the term reasonably is used and its subjective to whomever is judging after the fact.

In the twin peaks incident people with families not affiliated with an actual criminal enterprise biker gang were charged just like they were because they displayed a weapon in preparation to respond to an obviously deadly situation. I'm not sure about the legality of carry in there regarding the 51% law as I have never been there but the point is lots of bad crap happend to people in a chaotic situation. It's an example of why these things arent black and white but you better be sure to make them so when you account for your actions. Also, you may have to justify presenting your weapon in the first place so be prepared for that.

Training and knowledge. Keeps you alive and out of prison.

I will grant you that learning and training is always a good course, but I doubt very seriously I would question myself on what is legal under a situation where the lives of loved ones and myself are concerned.

birddog · Jun 15, 2019

ZX9RCAM said:
Hell of a post at 4:40am....

And a damn good one at that. I wish there were more like it.

This question seems to pop up with regularity. My $.02.....

Everyone has seen and played with a basketball. Shooting hoops, dribbling, etc, we've all done it at some point in time (unless youre an alien

. You may be good at it, exceptionally good. Challenged by someone to play 1 on 1, would you accept that challenge? Would you do it if the cost of losing was your life? It stands to reason you wouldnt.

Many people are proficient with firearms in a static predictive setting. They can drill bullseyes all day long. There's exceptions, but for the most part, putting yourself in the battlespace (not trying to be fancy) of a gunfight or public/mass shooting scenario rarely ends well.

Search online for the videos of the incident involving DPD officers and the shooter with a military background. Some of the officers had the advantage and still lost their lives. Punching paper on the range is one thing. Surviving a gunfight requires an entirely different set of skills, ability and repetive training.

edit - most people have had experiences or incidents where somethng abrupt and totally unexpected occured and afterwards, wasn't able to remember many of the details if anything at all. That's a problem. If you have to spend time thinking about what youre going to do, you're fk'd. Training will fix that problem, if shit gets intense real quick, you won't think about your response to a situation, you'll instinctively do it.

Big Green · Jun 15, 2019

This is exactly the conversation I was hoping to have, some good information and discussion of consequences.

oldag · Jun 15, 2019

Younggun said:
I will act if it is prudent by my own judgement as the best course of action if and when the situation ever arises where I find myself having to make the choice.

And that should be good for the end of this thread.

oldag · Jun 15, 2019

txinvestigator said:
To everyone: So you are in a restaurant eating with your parents and a guy drives his truck through the front window, gets out and starts shooting people. What would you do?
He hasn't targeted you yet.

Younggun called it...

TheMailMan · Jun 15, 2019

avvidclif said:
In that, only that described scenario, no changes allowed. If he's shooting in my direction, mistake, I will return fire. Immediately. If shooting at others, bigger mistake, my first shot probably won't miss, center mass, with several right behind it. Dead shooter = no cover needed. When sirens are heard and scene secure unload gun and place it on counter with the removed magazine and ammo beside it. Back off from it and put hands on top of head. Stand still

Ya beat me too it.

My wife knows to call 911 and give them my description and tell them I'm NOT THE SHOOTER.

birddog · Jun 15, 2019

txinvestigator said:
To everyone: So you are in a restaurant eating with your parents and a guy drives his truck through the front window, gets out and starts shooting people. What would you do?
He hasn't targeted you yet.

I'd smoke his ass. Make a show of asking everyone if they're ok and get names to ensure witnesses saw my actions in the prooper contexr, drop my weapon after clearing the area, find a spot outside in the open and squat down on my knees with my hands in the air to show I'm compliant and unarmed.

candcallen · Jun 15, 2019

ZX9RCAM said:
I was referring to candallen.
Hella long post, early in the morning...

Its 5 o'clock somewhere. Besides, after years as a test subject for orthopedic surgeons I havnt slept more than a couple hours at a time anyways so I'm in a perpetual state of sleep deprivation. Not much different than some journey to enlightenment that opens ones mind to the universes teaching and wisdom.

Not buying it?
Well it sounds better than a crotchety crippled bastard regurgitating random stuff he read.

birddog · Jun 15, 2019

avvidclif said:
......If shooting at others, bigger mistake, my first shot probably won't miss, center mass, with several right behind it.l

Please don't take take offense at what I have to say.

That's a statement that's sigificant. It's an example of sound strategic goals and a single misstep, a flawed tactical methodology that could cost someone their life.
The assumption being you possess a sidearm and fully compliant technically with state and federal law, i.e. no armor piercing ammunition.

My interpretation of center mass will neutralize a threat the moment the round penetrates POA. No neural spasm, amped up on khat, smack, hash, whatever, their ass is going down as though someone flipped a switch. Training, operational doctrine, and MOUT/CQB/FISH, etc. Its been a while, but foundations don't change just the tools and proceduall methodology required to use them effectively.

I've seen combatants shot and continue the assault until they bled out. I've experienced gunshot wounds. More than once. Stacked along a wall, I thought my teammate bumped up against me. I was focused, aware, had no fkn idea I'd just been shot by a round deflected off the wall. Someone said I was bleeding, I looked down, saw a good sized pool of blood down my leg and around my feet. I raised my hand, had a totally unexpected venous spurt from my shoulder that looked like a fkn guyser from my point of view. And I was done.

I've seen and experienced crazy, fkd up shit. Not braggin, but I've had my head stapled front to back without a local, syrette, no meds period. I'm not a pussy. But why anyone would want to put themselve at risk of losing their life, nothing more than familiarity with their tools, paper punching, YT vids, misinformation on the web, is stupid. It makes no sense. No fkn sense whatsoever.

I've seen the best trained stud on the planet lose their lives. The unexpected hasa a habit of doing that.

birddog · Jun 15, 2019

candcallen said:
Its 5 o'clock somewhere. Besides, after years as a test subject for orthopedic surgeons I havnt slept more than a couple hours at a time anyways so I'm in a perpetual state of sleep deprivation. Not much different than some journey to enlightenment that opens ones mind to the universes teaching and wisdom.

Not buying it?
Well it sounds better than a crotchety crippled bastard regurgitating random stuff he read.

I have two close friends, both orth surgeons. Plano and Frisco. Both insomniacs. They've shared some interesting stories, setting compound fractures, etc. They both txt all hours night and day.

Shoot me a pm.

birddog · Jun 15, 2019

Mowingmaniac 24/7 said:
My take: LTVers aren't LEOers.

I wouldnt trust my life to just any small agency LEO's. Some are hsld studs. There's a couple I shoot with that cant hit the side of a barn.

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