Hurley's Gold

Impressive groups from unimpressive distances

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  • LHB1

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    Mar 4, 2008
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    Houston
    I got nothin' against 50 yards with a handgun (challenging though it can be), I'm mostly surprised at the "hole" in the range spread.

    Me too. I asked the owner about it one time. He said their customers couldn't care less about the lack of a 25 yd range. He had no business reason to build another pistol range just for the very few shooters like me who would like a true 25 yd range. FWIW I used a laser rangefinder to measure all their pistol and rifle shooting ranges one day. Every range was shorter than the nominal distance stated.
    Target Sports
     
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    Sep 4, 2008
    190
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    Gladewater, TX
    LHB1... +1 on the laser range finder. I use one with my job in designing church projection systems and it is always in my car with my digi camera. i like being able to know exactly how fari am from the target and then with the digi camera i can document my groups.

    i got bored the other day and actually used the laser range finder to calulate the area and volume of my house. lol didn't have any good reason to do so, just thought it would be interesting to know.
     

    LHB1

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    Mar 4, 2008
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    Houston
    i got bored the other day and actually used the laser range finder to calulate the area and volume of my house. lol didn't have any good reason to do so, just thought it would be interesting to know.

    Hey Funky,
    The next time you get bored, my yard has a lot of small limbs and stuff from the storm, there is still one oak tree from a neighbor's yard lying in my yard, and the house needs scraping/painting. Help yourself! I'll be at the pistol range punching holes in paper.
     

    navyguy

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    Oct 22, 2008
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    Shooting at longer than defense ranges (7-15) yards can help with trigger control and holding steady, and it's fun. I do that with friends when we go to the range just for grins. But it really doesn't do much to help you train towards a defense situation. Try explaining to the police why you shot an attacher at 25 yards. Unless of course it was some idiot shooting up a mall or some such. If you're shooting a combat pistol, Glock, Sig, HK M&P you name it... practice at combat ranges, and shot fast, shoot slow, shoot strong hand and weak hand. Point shoot. If you do all that and have a fist sized group... post it... I'd be interested to see it. But on the other hand, I'm always amazed by how poorly 90% of the people I see at a public range shoot. At less than 7 yards, most can't keep a 12' gourp no matter how slow they shoot. Maybe that's why some people think if they shoot a 3" group, they should be proud of it. And, maybe we should let them enjoy the success.
     

    LHB1

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    Mar 4, 2008
    311
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    Houston
    Here is a recent 5 shot group fired standing, two hands, no rest, at Carter's 18 yd (?) range with my new Wilson 4" Professional in .45 ACP. It was going to be a 50 shot group but I just had to stop and save it for posting on the door of my reloading room (garage). The group measures 0.908" center to center, smaller than the quarter (0.9550) shown for comparison.

    701Y.gif
     

    Dog

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    Nov 29, 2008
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    I always practiced at 3 7 15 and 25 yds , but back to the orignal post...
    Yep as far as reflecting accuracy of a particular fiearm a 7 yard target does little good. A seated bench rested target at 25 yds tells me a lot tho.
     

    midnightrider

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    Mar 6, 2008
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    I must politely disagree with you. It's all well and good to have a pistol that's accurate out to 25 yards, but it's the BG with a knife/gun coming at you fast from 3 to 7 feet thats going to ruin your day. All of my handguns will hit a 25 yard target. Being able to put a lot of holes close together at distances of 9 to 21 feet while under stress is a skill that could save your life. Hitting a target with a pistol at 25 yards is a skill that will win you trophies.
    Just and old soldiers musing
     

    djspump2003

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    Oct 19, 2008
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    Austin
    I must politely disagree with you. It's all well and good to have a pistol that's accurate out to 25 yards, but it's the BG with a knife/gun coming at you fast from 3 to 7 feet thats going to ruin your day. All of my handguns will hit a 25 yard target. Being able to put a lot of holes close together at distances of 9 to 21 feet while under stress is a skill that could save your life. Hitting a target with a pistol at 25 yards is a skill that will win you trophies.
    Just and old soldiers musing
    While I feel that you are right, I feel that you are speaking about different skills.

    Bullseye and tactical shooting are quite different. It is hard to simulate tactical shooting at most ranges, or at least the indoor one that I go to. For what you are talking about, I guess you could set the target at about 7 yards and have a buddy reel the target towards you and see how fast you could put holes in it before it got to you. A bad guy can cover 21 feet and stab you with a knife before most people can even draw their weapon.

    The last time I qualified Expert marksman was in Bahrain in the summer of 2007. The range instructor wanted to simulate a high pressure situation to be more like a "real-life" scenario. So he made us do jumping-jacks and push-ups for about 5 minutes to get our heart-rate up. Then he would scream at us while we tried to remember the sequence he had told us to shoot the 4 targets we were firing at.

    That was one of the better non-force-on-force quals they had us do. Force-on-force is always best, but it seems we never have money for simunitions.
     

    TAZ

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    Oct 17, 2008
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    Round Rock
    for defensive handgun shooting purposes it is better NOT to have a super tight group. It is better to have multiple holes all through the "torso center of mass"

    Example, if you shoot a controlled pair{ double tap} and bothe shots are less than 1/2 inch from each other, then what you have done is use two rounds to make one hole in a vital organ. Better to have them 6-8 inches apart in the torso. Multiple organ hits= faster stop.

    I am sure that there is some very good truth to this statement, but in the end rounds still need to end up at a location of your choosing not at a locations determined by luck or fate. Gotta remember that ther is a difference between marksmanship training and defensive training. We need to be doing both on a routine basis.
     

    M. Sage

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    Jan 21, 2009
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    San Antonio
    On the debate between Hydrostatic shock vs. multiple organs approaches... I was always trained, and have always trained others to hit within a 4-6" group within the solar plexus area.

    I was first introduced to tactical shooting in the Marines, and the majority of the same practices and philosophies are the same now that I'm in the Army. Double tapping to create two simultaneous hydrostatic shocks from close proximity creates a larger disturbance in the organs which has more of a possibility to incapacitate the individual, than say 6 random shots through out the body. According to the information I've been given there is also a high possibility that the heart can stop on the spot.

    The body is mostly water, so take two stones and throw them in a pond right after each other in around the same spot... that's pretty much the effect one is looking for in the soft tissue and organs of a target when double tapping.

    The problem with "hydrostatic shock" is that there is zero evidence that it's a wounding mechanism. The argument behind "hydrostatic shock" is like saying that if you punch someone in the arm hard enough, you'll stop his heart or burst blood vessels in his brain and kill him. It just doesn't work that way.
     

    robocop10mm

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    Jan 9, 2009
    996
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    Round Rock
    Multiple shots do not multiply the effects. The fraction of a second between shots allows the body and brain to deal with each separately.

    Simultaneous shots, either from multiple shooters or from a single round of buckshot, cause the autonomous part of the brain to shut the concious part of the brain down. This is one reason buckshot is so effective.
     

    M. Sage

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    Jan 21, 2009
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    I always figured buckshot was so effective because it put around 10 hits into an area roughly the size of my fist at across-the-room distance...
     

    kenboyles72

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    Oct 15, 2017
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    Gladewater,TX
    I have human size torso targets set all over my range at various distances, I practice shooting at all of them. While CQ shooting is primarily going to be used, you need to be able to shoot further targets efficiently. This goes for pistol or rifle.
     
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