Instructor Renewal Proficiency Test

benenglish said:

When I got my NRA Basic Pistol Instructor cert, completing Basic Pistol was not a prerequisite. The instructor didn't like it and stated that he'd prefer everyone take Basic Pistol before they took Basic Pistol Instructor. However, there were several of us in the class in the same situation and he certainly didn't refuse our money.

Have things changed?

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Yes

Bithabus said:

Yes

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Interesting. Thanks.

The DPS did allow an Instructor to qualify with a single action revolver and a couple of others to shoot single action with their double action revolvers. As long as they could keep up with the course of fire it was ok about a year and half ago.

One thing they did different than the other times I've qualified...between shots if you put your arms down to low ready they wanted you to put the safety on or decock....if you stayed on target, not necessary......

V-Tach said:

The DPS did allow an Instructor to qualify with a single action revolver and a couple of others to shoot single action with their double action revolvers. As long as they could keep up with the course of fire it was ok about a year and half ago.

One thing they did different than the other times I've qualified...between shots if you put your arms down to low ready they wanted you to put the safety on or decock....if you stayed on target, not necessary......

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My experience echos that

benenglish said:

Interesting. Thanks.

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They require 3 courses now to get certified as basic pistol instructor, including the actual basic pistol. I just did them last week. Luckily I had a good instructor who was willing to pick up the pace.

txinvestigator said:

My experience echos that

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Is the DPS range indoor or outdoor?

Frank59 said:

Is the DPS range indoor or outdoor?

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Outdoor. Very cool place. From the close up the range on the left is a 180 tac range. They shoot cars, teach traffic stops with shooting, etc, there. Next is the basic training range. Turning targets and 50 stations. Next range has moving targets. Then the 100 yard range and across is a skeet range for shotgun training. I am not sure what that is on the far right unless they have a shoot house now.

benenglish said:

Since I'm not an LTC instructor, I'm specifically wondering whether the folks taking the shooting test to earn instructor credentials do it differently from the way the test is supposed to be administered in regular classes.

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The instructors have the exact same test, have to shoot semi-auto and revolver, and score 90%. The command structure is much more regimented (proper), but we had almost 50 people shooting at the same time. One RO per four shooters, and one Range Master calling the course of fire on a PA system and controlling the battery of targets. Again, no "UP" or "FIRE" because you shot when the target presented. So, technically, that's even some liberty.

HOWEVER, I was told by the DPS guys that the course of fire is precise. You're not even supposed to change up the order. If I do it from memory, I'll say I've gotten two stages backwards before. But it's all done according to Hoyle.

benenglish said:

In the second CHL class I shot, a renewal, the instructor used "Hit it!" The instructor delighted in issuing a command of "Fire!" or "Shoot!" and then excoriating anyone who actually fired a shot. He had instructed us that the only command to fire was "Hit it!" and if we didn't follow his dictates, he made fun of us.

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Definitely not by the book. The course isn't designed to trip you up or make you feel uncomfortable. Remember, there are some VERY green shooters taking it. Safety is the number one (and two and three) most important things. Clowning or making people jumpy that are probably already nervous is wrong. And him not having 50 properly commanded shots is wrong.

I have done a thing where we have a sequence of "one shot in two seconds" drill and I'll do it 6 times. Some people are so intense they don't realize they're at slide lock and try to shoot from an open gun. I won't do it if anyone is in battery. I like to see how many people get a little confused about if they did something wrong or loaded the wrong amount or whatever. But there's zero chance of an ND. I won't do it unless everyone is empty.

benenglish said:

In the most recent class I have personal experience with the instructor just asked everyone to load as many cartridges as possible so there would be as few delays as possible during the course of shooting.

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We always load 5. I'm not sure if that's the official way to do it or just because sometimes people have 5 shot revolvers. I think we always loaded 5 in the instructor quals. If I have just one or two people and they're shooting "standard capacity", we might load 10 so on the 5 sets of "2 shots in 3 seconds" we don't have to reload. BUT, any extra shots or shots over time are scored as misses. This keeps the cheating down. Imagine you missed the target. Couldn't you just load 6 and get a pickup? The instructor surely couldn't hear the pick up. So loading 5 is part of controlling the test.

benenglish said:

Of course, that was the same instructor who answered questions about the written test during the test and told the students to talk amongst themselves if they didn't know any answers. And his PowerPoint looked to be at least 10 or 15 years out of date. And I could go on.

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And this kind of answers your question about instructors. Just because there's a right way doesn't mean they do it. So having so much variation in the test procedures doesn't mean there isn't a procedure.

Ironically, for the academics, they just give us a crappy set of notes printed out and essentially say "make a class out of this". I did power points, embedded videos, have props, do role playing, lots of class interaction, etc. But none of that is prescribed. Everyone does already have to be an instructor of something so maybe they just trust that we know teaching methodology and will be creative.

benenglish said:

Anyway, the basics of the classes I've seen have usually been an announcement of what the next string will be, a pause, and "Fire!" In some classes, the announcement of what the next string will be serves as the command to load. More commonly, there will be an intervening "Load!" Sometimes there will be an intervening "Everybody ready?" or just "Ready!" Most of the instructors I've observed aren't anywhere near perfectly consistent with their language from one string of fire to the next.

For someone accustomed to various shooting sports that use very rigid, very precise, perfectly repetitive line commands dictated in exhaustive detail in the written rules, the lackadaisical way at least some LTC instructors call the line has always struck me as weird.

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Mine is modeled after competition shooting, but it's nearly word for word the same as the DPS. Not sure who started that: comp, LE, or Mil. It makes sense, though, if a clear methodical version is available to use it. If you tweak it slightly for efficiency or clarity (like "fire" changing to "up"), then that should be fine I'd think.

My full sequence is:
Shooters, load five rounds in your magazine. (wait until everyone is loaded)
Load and make ready (seat the magazine, charge the weapon, hold at low ready, safety on/decocked)
Course of fire is one shot in two seconds, one shot in two seconds.
Shooters ready (pause)
UP
...
Cease Fire (five iterations)
(at the end of the 5 shots)
Unload and show clear (drops mags, locks slide back, sets down on barrels, mag well faces right, chamber up for visual inspection.

Next sequence.
That's exactly how I do it, each and every time (with noted exceptions).

benenglish said:

If I knew I were going to have to shoot for an instructor like that, I'd sure as bloody hell show up with my single action K-frame S&W M-14. In fact, I wonder if anyone has ever shot the instructor qualifier for the state using a single action revolver?

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As for my instructor qual, my guy was more like the passive, or lazy instructors I guess. But he also saw me shooting a sub-1" group at 3 yards, and who he's seen shoot plenty, and he was a national record holder precision shooter himself, just chuckled and told me to move back to 15yds and save the ammo.

Incidentally, I did shoot my entire original instructor qual with the GP100 revolver in single action (from low ready to up to fire, cock while presenting, bang, cock, bang..., every shot in single action). I bought the gun two weeks prior since I didn't own a revolver yet. I didn't do it for the challenge but rather the precision. Wasn't sure what to expect.

This was the target from that shooting. A couple of guys came over and looked and jokingly asked "why the 9 ring hits?" I told them the guy next to me was shooting 44 mag and his muzzle blast was pushing on my barrel. Funny enough, I could actually see the compression and shockwave from his shots if I finished before him.

txinvestigator said:

So much to be said.

The Texas Government Code (laws) nor the Texas Administrative Code (rules set out by law) dictate the commands used. Saying up, fire, front, blowing a whistle, etc, is all instructor discretion.

Neither code dictates that the course of fire start from low ready.

The Admin code dictates the course of fire and how many rounds are loaded per magazine/cylinder. It is flexible for firearms that cannot accommodate 6 rounds.

I have been an LTC instructor since 2003 and have seen many changes.

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Thanks for the input. I didn't know where to reference (nor did I look) for the specifics about the course of fire. I have been told that it is supposed to be shot in sequence. I don't remember seeing anyone on the instructor quals starting at presentation. I'm not sure if they'd have been corrected and if "the rules don't say that..." would have flown. Incidentally, and not to be argumentative, but could you start with your finger on the trigger?

I'm sure there's some latitude for the exact commands given. Perhaps we should see what's material and what's not. "up" versus "fire" versus a presenting target or whistle is all pretty immaterial. Starting from presentation vs low ready makes a difference. Starting with 33 rounds in a mag so someone could sneak in a pick up makes a difference.

My interpretation is that they'd probably rather everyone start from how they'd be carrying, but concealed in a holster would be a disaster. So the low ready assumes you have drawn the firearm safely. Target acquisition is a big part of that 2-seconds. To be able to start presented, safety off, finger on the trigger is a totally different exercise than one shot in two seconds from the low ready with the safety on. In fact, that's 2-seconds just to pull the trigger. In that case, we might infer that that is not the intent of the test.

txinvestigator said:

Outdoor. Very cool place. From the close up the range on the left is a 180 tac range. They shoot cars, teach traffic stops with shooting, etc, there. Next is the basic training range. Turning targets and 50 stations. Next range has moving targets. Then the 100 yard range and across is a skeet range for shotgun training. I am not sure what that is on the far right unless they have a shoot house now.

View attachment 185467 View attachment 185468

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Yes, that's the range. It is very neat. Our tax dollars at work, but for a good cause I suppose. 60 lanes on the pistol range as I recall. We had 108 in our class so they split it roughly evenly. I was on lane 25. They have a driving course there too as you showed. The classroom are large theater style seating auditoriums. I think they said mine was the first LTC class to shoot on the range (about 4 years ago).

I shot there for the CHL Instructor course 11 or 12 years ago...Only the range was there at that time and a picnic pavilion type structure (that is still there)....

I know exactly which students shoot an extra round and which don't shoot the required amount.........part of being the RSO is watching their box of ammo/reloading and keeping their round count.......suppose that's hard to do with only one CRSO and 20 students shooting at a time (which, imho would be unsafe...10 students and 1 CRSO is not safe either for that matter).... I also watch their hands and their firearms....not the target when they are shooting..

It amazes me that some Instructors go through the shooting qualification with the DPS and can't/won't do it the same way with their students. The DPS does it correct, there is really no excuse that someone didn't know how to do it in a proper manner.........

benenglish said:

When I got my NRA Basic Pistol Instructor cert, completing Basic Pistol was not a prerequisite. The instructor didn't like it and stated that he'd prefer everyone take Basic Pistol before they took Basic Pistol Instructor. However, there were several of us in the class in the same situation and he certainly didn't refuse our money.

Have things changed?

As an aside, I was under the impression that something similar was true of LTC instructors, i.e. you don't have to have an LTC to become an instructor. You can go to the instructor class and that will serve as both your LTC class and your instructor class, simultaneously. Of course, that would be really jumping off into the deep end for a guy like me with no criminal LE background but I suppose some folks have done it.

TXI - Is my impression presented in the previous paragraph correct?

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He might know better than I, but I think you taking the instructor portion can qualify you for your CHL. I think a few people were doing that. I got my CHL the year before. BUT, the renewal for the CHL/LTC is separate: 5 years, and $40. The instructor renewal is every 2 years and $100. Now the LTC you don't really do anything to renew but the instructors have to reshoot and I guess take another test. Last renewal we had to go to Waco for the seminar. I guess new renewals are done online.

For this year LTC Instructor renewals.....
Complete LTC Instructor renewal application and pay the renewal fee on line.
Complete LTC 90 and print
Download the Instructor renewal materials http://www.dps.texas.gov/RSD/LTC/documents/instrRenewTrng.pdf (password protected)
Take the Instructor renewal exam http://www.dps.texas.gov/RSD/LTC/documents/instrRenewExam.pdf (password protected) and print
Have another Instructor perform and sign your shooting qualification LTC 100
Upload all documents to RSD.

Thanks to all of you for helping create a thread with a high level of solid information. Your posts are much appreciated. I'm sure I could learn quite a bit if I were to take a class from each of you.

benenglish said:

Thanks to all of you for helping create a thread with a high level of solid information. Your posts are much appreciated. I'm sure I could learn quite a bit if I were to take a class from each of you.

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That's a big 10-4 Ben! Out of curiosity is the shooting portion of the DPS class performed at a certain time of day ( Early morning-Late evening )? I know it gets hot has hell during the summer.

Frank59 said:

That's a big 10-4 Ben! Out of curiosity is the shooting portion of the DPS class performed at a certain time of day ( Early morning-Late evening )? I know it gets hot has hell during the summer.

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Mine at the DPS facility was like 4:00PM in August as I remember. Hot enough to see the shockwave from my neighbors muzzleblast. IIRC, it was two days of class followed by something and maybe shooting the third day. Not sure how they're doing it these days. Lots of developments. Very dynamic. Even from last renewal to this one, last time we had to meet in Waco for a big class that basically told us "keep doing what you're doing" for four hours. But now it's an online course and test. Much better! I wish the NFA branch at ATF learned something from DPS. But that's another topic. Can I hijack my own thread??

Any other instructors get a two day instructor certification class? Mine was 40 hours.

Hoji said:

Any other instructors get a two day instructor certification class? Mine was 40 hours.

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My original class was 3 days because I already had a Texas PSB instructor cert. Monday to Wednesday. They kept people with no instructor certification the additional two days. That was before the board smacked DPS RSD on the pp for not following the laws.

txinvestigator said:

My original class was 3 days because I already had a Texas PSB instructor cert. Monday to Wednesday. They kept people with no instructor certification the additional two days. That was before the board smacked DPS RSD on the pp for not following the laws.

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That’s right. I think I was in the first class that had to do all 40 hours ( even with instructor cert from PSB) a few folks were grumbling about it.

Hoji said:

That’s right. I think I was in the first class that had to do all 40 hours ( even with instructor cert from PSB) a few folks were grumbling about it.

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And I thought taking 2 days to teach me how to teach a class that lasts 4 hours was kind of ironic. I think we spent a couple hours just going over how to score a target. I think the most valuable thing in the class was actually the feedback from LE guys taking the class. About 1/3 of our class I think was some kind of LE. It was interesting to hear their perspective about traffic stops of people with CHLs and how they handle them. Granted, if they're taking a class to qualify people to carry, then I'm guessing the data is skewed in favor of citizens carrying.

Plenty of cops, I'm sure, don't like the idea of anyone but them having a gun. Naturally, the LE/LTC instructor is probably going to be more relaxed when you flash two IDs.

The one time I was stopped (expired inspection sticker), the cop had me get out and put my hands on the truck and disarm me when I presented the CHL. In fact, I think he forgot why he pulled me over at that point. Ran the SN on the gun. But, just gave me a verbal warning at the end of it. A little excessive in my opinion. Apparently (per the discussion in the instructor class) many/most cops will maybe just say something like "okay, well, just keep your hand on the wheel" or even just "okay, thanks" and maybe even have the perspective "at least this guy is taking personal responsibility for his safety" or "maybe one day this guy will save me if I get ambushed". I'd like to think that, anyway. Haven't been stopped since my license says "instructor". Not sure if that'd make any difference one way or another.