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  • Dawico

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    This brings up an interesting point, what is the cut off date of old guns for fanboys?

    The AR15 is 61 years old and people are going apeshit over it like it’s a recent entry. Would love to hear Zach’s thoughts as well.
    The AR15 doesn't have an affordable high production alternative that allows near the level of customization.

    The 1911 does.
     

    easy rider

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    The "1911 vs Glock" debate is silly and petty. We're wasting valuable time and pixels arguing instead of focusing on what's really important.....




    ....which is why everyone should be carrying revolvers anyway.

    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
    HEY! Get yourself some popcorn and sit the hell down, you're blocking my view.
     

    Reinz

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    The ar15 was one of the last guns to be designed before we hit the current plateau of small arms designs. It was modern enough to make proper use of modern polymers, and is arguably the single most adaptable firearm design ever made. It also has the benefit of over 60 years of military and civilian development.

    On the flip side, the 1911.

    The 1911, we need to break it down into 2 parts, military use, and civilian. Military 1911's are service pistols. The fine fitting of parts to make a gun shoot 1-2 inches at 50 yards didn't happen. Parts had to be held under strict QC to ensure that basic maintenance and armory repairs didn't end up with a gun that didn't work. Military 1911's are loose guns.

    Civilian 1911's saw little development until the AWB made it the go-to choice for those who wanted to shoot a semi.

    Prior to kimber showing up, you got a gun that was basically a USGI spec pistol. You'd then send it off to a smith to increase its accuracy, and reliability with HP bullets, and even then it wasn't a guarantee that you'd get what you paid for. Point being the modern production 1911 is less than 40 years old

    In any case, when the 1911 was designed, the only other successful semi auto pistol was the luger. Not exactly strong competition. Over the years, even browning would improve his design. The hi-power had a number of improvements, though he died before seeing it to completion.

    Think of it like this, when the AR15 was designed, everyone knew what a select fire carbine should be. The AK was a thing, the STG44 was a thing, and the M2 carbine was sort of a thing.

    When the 1911 was designed, it was treading new ground. Hell, the whole idea of a slide was less than 10 uears old at that point.

    Despite all the shit i talk, the 1911 is an ok design, and in the few niches it shines, it's one of the best around, but other designs (that wouldn't exist without the 1911) have surpassed it for what 99% of people use a pistol for.

    Zach, thank you for taking the time with a well detailed response.
     

    jrbfishn

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    Except I was just razzin Dan.
    There is nothing wrong with Hi-Power.
    Or High Point. Or Glock. Or almost any other.
    This weekend, I got to meet a member and do some shooting with him. He brought two Berettas. Little .32 acp model something. Cute little thing. Cost a little over $200 each. He offered to let me be the first to shoot one. Shot about a 3 inch group at 15 yards. Pretty damn good for me with black open sights and my eyes. I smiled and thanked when I handed it back. Accurate little thing. Almost no recoil. Light and small. Light trigger pull. Probably would not keep it if you gave me one. I have arthritis. It hurt my thumb joint to hold it and hurt worse to shoot it. Only ever picked up one model of Beretta that actually felt good in my hand but it had what to me was a horrendous trigger. I left it in the gun store too.
    But there ain't a damn thing wrong with them.
    Another good friend, actually 2 of them and I were discussing why he shoots his revolvers revolvers better than most semi autos. I had him hold a couple of them at arms length and then his revolver to see the difference in how each sat in his hand and the difference between them.
    He finally gets it.
    What about you?
    No matter what it is, what kind it is or how many rounds it holds. The only things that matter;
    It fits you. You can shoot it well and hit what you aim at.
    If you like plastic gun, goody for you.



    Sent by an idjit coffeeholic from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
     

    jrbfishn

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    But I'm still gonna rag the dang moonpie fella on his pissant Glockkk.
    I wonder about him sometimes.
    Glad I'm armed around him to.
    With a COLT .44
    With black powder.
    Just 'cause.

    Sent by an idjit coffeeholic from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
     

    Hoji

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    I don't - guns in a safe don't do ya any good. There's at least a half-dozen 1911's around the house in various locations, along w/a KSG shottie in my office.
    KSG is one of two unmodified shotties I have seen that will digest the mini shells without hiccups. Almost bought one for that reason alone. 17 rounds of buckshot without a reload( and the mini buckshot will kill a 50-70lb pig with a body shot at 20 feet ;) , as in dropped)
     

    zackmars

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    The Hornady ZMax 12ga was/is very effective on pigs out to 100 yards. Bought a bunch of it when it went on clearance. Almost out of it. Wish I had bought more.


    Isn't the z-max stuff just repackage v-max loads?
     

    Dawico

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    This confuses me.

    Are you saying that ARs are not as customizable as 1911s?
    No. The basic question was while we have all of these 1911 vs. Glock debates where are all the AR vs. whatever debates?

    My response was stating that the AR doesn't have a more modern, affordable, and customizable counterpart to debate with.
     

    Hoji

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    Isn't the z-max stuff just repackage v-max loads?
    Pretty much. In rifle calibers it is the v-max that did not quite pass QC. The shotgun shells are the critical defense that did not quite make it.

    Kind of like handgun ammo boxed in 20 round packages for “personal defense” at 2x cost are the “duty” rounds for LE that did not pass the QC for being duty rounds.
     

    zackmars

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    No. The basic question was while we have all of these 1911 vs. Glock debates where are all the AR vs. whatever debates?

    My response was stating that the AR doesn't have a more modern, affordable, and customizable counterpart to debate with.

    Modern is a tricky word. Pretty much every 5.56 rifle that isn't an AR15 is just an AR18. There's only so many times you can repackage the same guts.

    The real question is of the modern alternatives, the ACR, SCAR, Bren, ARX, etc what do they inherently do better? All you get is a folding stock, and more than a few companies are giving you that for AR15's.
     

    Dawico

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    Modern is a tricky word. Pretty much every 5.56 rifle that isn't an AR15 is just an AR18. There's only so many times you can repackage the same guts.

    The real question is of the modern alternatives, the ACR, SCAR, Bren, ARX, etc what do they inherently do better? All you get is a folding stock, and more than a few companies are giving you that for AR15's.
    The other comparison killer is price. $300 will get you a serviceable AR15. That same money won't even begin to modify those others much less purchase one.

    The aftermarket for the ACR fell flat on its face and the price to play for the SCAR is out of most buyer's reach.

    $500 gets you into a Glock, 1911, or a variety of other dependable handguns.

    Even a $1000 AR just doesn't have a viable counterpart when all the factors are taken in to consideration. That's why we don't see the AR15 vs. XXX threads.
     

    zackmars

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    The other comparison killer is price. $300 will get you a serviceable AR15. That same money won't even begin to modify those others much less purchase one.

    The aftermarket for the ACR fell flat on its face and the price to play for the SCAR is out of most buyer's reach.

    $500 gets you into a Glock, 1911, or a variety of other dependable handguns.

    Even a $1000 AR just doesn't have a viable counterpart when all the factors are taken in to consideration. That's why we don't see the AR15 vs. XXX threads.


    WRT price, true, but you need an actual feature to truly be successful.

    At the time when the ACR and SCAR hit the market, you didn't have a lot of the choices we have now in the AR market. $500 got you a low end rifle, $800 got you a good one, and a great one was north of $1000. There was still (or at least looked like there was) room for a gun that could give you all the things the AR did, plus a few things it couldn't

    Obviously now we have hindsight, and look at the ACR, and can ask "what were they thinking?", but back in 2008, it had promise
     

    m5215

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    Sep 3, 2018
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    The basic question was while we have all of these 1911 vs. Glock debates where are all the AR vs. whatever debates?

    As soon as glock releases a new 5.56mm rifle the great debate will begin over how superior it is and then of course I will have another category of firearms to put on my do not buy list.
     
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