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21 for tactical weapons?

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  • Texas1911

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    (e) Any other weapon

    The term “any other weapon” means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell
    , weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.

    I think this is the determination... that without a stock, the shotgun becomes a pistol with a smoothbore designed to fire shot. So it then defers to the AOW status since it lacks rifling, but because it has a barrel length of 18" it is deferred from the NFA process. It really doesn't fit into any category as defined, but is part pistol, part shotgun, and part AOW. With it being 21+ to own, I'd imagine it falls somewhere between the pistol and AOW.
     

    SIG_Fiend

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    Yet another example of the stupidity of having the NFA, regulating items such as these, and then having a pointless organization like the ATF to randomly decide what the flavor of the week is with the law and change it on a moments notice. Instead of over 22,000 ridiculously complicated laws, in regards to firearms, that no one can ever possibly remember all of them, there should be like 10. ;)
     

    Texas42

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    Yet another example of the stupidity of having the NFA, regulating items such as these, and then having a pointless organization like the ATF to randomly decide what the flavor of the week is with the law and change it on a moments notice. Instead of over 22,000 ridiculously complicated laws, in regards to firearms, that no one can ever possibly remember all of them, there should be like 10. ;)

    I think there should be one.

    Something like,

    "if you shoot someone for no reason, we are gonna shoot you full of lead."
     

    M. Sage

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    (e) Any other weapon

    The term “any other weapon” means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell
    , weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.

    I think this is the determination... that without a stock, the shotgun becomes a pistol with a smoothbore designed to fire shot. So it then defers to the AOW status since it lacks rifling, but because it has a barrel length of 18" it is deferred from the NFA process. It really doesn't fit into any category as defined, but is part pistol, part shotgun, and part AOW. With it being 21+ to own, I'd imagine it falls somewhere between the pistol and AOW.

    No, an AOW requires NFA registration, which the cruiser shotguns don't. It's definitely not a smoothbore handgun, as it's too long to be considered a handgun under Federal law.

    What it is is a long gun. What it isn't is a shotgun per the definitions under Federal law. Those same laws say that you can transfer rifles and shotguns to people 18 years of age, but all else is 21 and over... including long guns.

    It's also illegal for a dealer to transfer an AR receiver to someone under 21 for the same reason. It may be a long gun and be transferred as such, but it isn't a rifle till the stock is on it.
     

    Texas1911

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    It's definitely not a smoothbore handgun, as it's too long to be considered a handgun under Federal law.

    (29) The term “handgun” means—

    (A) a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and


    (B) any combination of parts from which a firearm described in subparagraph (A) can be assembled.

    So there's no definition on length of a handgun. Maybe it's a handgun after all? I can't see them ruling on that with the foregrip.

    What it is is a long gun. What it isn't is a shotgun per the definitions under Federal law. Those same laws say that you can transfer rifles and shotguns to people 18 years of age, but all else is 21 and over... including long guns.

    I don't see "long gun" defined in the laws, or even mentioned.

    It's also illegal for a dealer to transfer an AR receiver to someone under 21 for the same reason. It may be a long gun and be transferred as such, but it isn't a rifle till the stock is on it.

    (b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—

    (1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age;

    The law states the receiver is a "firearm". To my understanding it is legal to sell a rifle receiver to those that are 18+, but not to sell a pistol marked receiver, since it is held to be a pistol.

    This would coincide that you could not legally make the rifle lower into anything but a rifle as per the NFA "Constructive" clause. That, and a rifle is not described as being a stock, only that it is intended to be fired from the shoulder.
     

    Texas1911

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    Regardless, I'm going to call the ATF and see what they have to say about it. I might call them a few times and see if I can get 20 different answers. Anyone wanna take bets? LOL.
     

    robocop10mm

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    AOW is a defined classification under the NFA. The purchase of a weapon in AOW class requires paperwork just like a machinegun, supressor, or SBR. The tax is $5/weapon. The Ithaca stakeout is an example of an AOW. Barrel under 18", ut built that way from the factory. If the gun leaves the factory with an 18" barrel and then gets shortened to sub 18" at some point in the future, it becomes an SBS (short barrel shotgun, AKA sawed off shotgun). An SBS requires a $200 tax.
     

    Texas1911

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    The Ithaca Stakeout is an AOW because it is a pistol grip shotgun with a barrel under 18". If it had a stock, it'd be an SBS. There is no stipulation regarding "factory-built" in the Title 18 - 921 NFA definitions of SBS and AOW.

    If you took a Mossberg 500 pistol grip shotgun and cut the barrel to 10" you'd have to first be a registered NFA manufacturer, and secondly pay a $200 tax for the manufacture of the AOW, then the $5 transfer tax from manufacturer to personal books.

    The only way I can see the pistol grip shotgun being a shotgun is if it is longer than 26" and if it is, it's by the hair of it's chin. Then there is the stipulation that it is to be fired from the shoulder (designed), but similar to pistol --> SBR with a fore-grip I think it bypasses that requirement with the fact that it is meant to be fired with two hands, unlike a pistol.

    However, the grey area is the age requirement. If it is indeed a shotgun, then by law, it can be sold to persons 18+. However we've been reminded by the ATF that it is 21+ for pistol grip shotguns, and Mossberg even puts a sticker on their boxes reminding you. Ergo, the dilemna. M. Sage said it was a "long gun", but Title 18 Firearm law does not define a "long gun", and if it were a long-gun, then it can only be a shotgun or rifle, as anything else... is a pistol or NFA item.

    Confusing ass law.
     

    Texas1911

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    The Mossberg pistol grip shotguns are 28-3/4" OAL and Mossberg has it classified as a "Special Purpose Shotgun" in their categories. Here's a question ... can you sell a stocked shotgun to someone that is 18, when it has a pistol grip kit from the factory as well? Can they be arrested under the "constructive" clause because they have the parts to make it a 21+ year old firearm?
     

    Texas1911

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    Got off the phone with the ATF inspector in San Antonio.

    Here's the low-down on the Mossberg Cruser.

    With a pistol grip only, it is a pistol. Ergo the 21 years of age.

    With a pistol grip conversion kit and with the stock in possession, but not installed, it is a shotgun (long gun), and can be sold to an 18 year old.

    It is not considered constructive possession to have the pistol grip conversion kit in possession so long as you originally purchased it with a factory stock, under the age of 21, and it is not illegal to sell a pistol grip conversion kit to someone under the age of 21.

    They need to put this junk on their website.
     

    Texas42

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    So, are you saying that if you bought a shotgun that just had the pistol grip (A lare pistol, i Guess) with no stock, and then added a stock to it, it would be illegal ?
     

    Texas1911

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    So, are you saying that if you bought a shotgun that just had the pistol grip (A lare pistol, i Guess) with no stock, and then added a stock to it, it would be illegal ?

    No, a pistol may be converted to a rifle or shotgun legally so long as the barrel and gun is of legal length. If it's not of legal length, you'll illegally make an SBR or SBS.

    You can't convert a rifle or shotgun into a pistol however, that would be an AOW.
     
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