.40sw vs: .45acp power and stopping power

[Old Man of the Mountain]

Guess I should have elaborated my question a bit better. I am definitely in favor of using lethal force to defend oneself or those around you. Why shoot through a car door when there is a window right above it or air/legs right below it. If your attacker is using a car door for cover and you cant see them, pulling the trigger is not a good idea.

Well you can wait for them (and there might be about five of them) to pop up from behind the car doors and see who get the first shot off if you prefer.

 

[jfrey]

The .45 ACP has been known as "a man stopper" for many years. I don't recall hearing such remarks about the .40. Pretty much a personal preference thing for most people. I'll keep my .45 just in case.

 

[txinvestigator]

Notice that in this side by side comparison of terminal bullet performance, the 9 mm distance is ok, but the disruption does not come close to a good performing round.

That is why criminals have been mortally wounded, but not stopped by 9 mm rounds.

The same is true for every common handgun caliber. We had an officer take 6 hits from a .45 and survive. I saw a guy take a .25 to the chest and die. Heck I have see people stopped by a .22.

A determined criminal thug with a knife will take out a Police Officer with a 9 mm before the thug drops from the 9 mm wounds.

As will one with most any caliber.

The rest of the projectiles are stoppers.

Sure, depends on shot placement, number of shots fired, etc. Plenty of people have been killed or stopped by 9mm.

The point is that handguns are marginal defensive weapons. We read stories all of the time about people shot and being able to survive for minutes before collapsing from blood loss, etc., with all calibers.

 

[idleprocess]

I expect that we may have to agree to disagree on this subject.

That is why criminals have been mortally wounded, but not stopped by 9 mm rounds.

A determined criminal thug with a knife will take out a Police Officer with a 9 mm before the thug drops from the 9 mm wounds.

I have heard this saw repeated endlessly, usually with stories about thuggos being "walked back," killed instantly, or their abdomens nearly vaporized by .45ACP/10mm/[misc non-9mm] rounds and other curious exaggerations. These stories are usually accompanied by stories of cretins being shot center of mass by full magazines of other calibers and proceeding to commit curious acts of brute physical violence against the person who shot them, seemingly unscathed by the hundreds of grains of lead that was energetically deposited in them and the pints of blood they are losing per minute.

If you have no choice but to shoot ball ammo at someone like the military by all means go with the largest bore/heaviest round available. The military's conversion to 9mm NATO to appease our European allies does not seem to be doing our military any favors.

But otherwise the many advancements in ammunition design that have occurred in the past century have changed terminal ballistics considerably.

While large and heavier rounds will inevitably do more damage to a target than smaller and lighter rounds all other things being equal, carrying more ammunition and being able to strike a target more times also has benefits to offset relatively small differences in damage potential.

However, we cannot discount the velocity component...

P.S. I also believe that the main reason that the light little 9 mm bullets look ok on this test is because they did not hit any hard substance, like bone. A heavier bullet hitting bone does not stop as quickly as a light 9 mm bullet will.

What does the 125gr .357SIG round have over the 124gr 9mm round? 138 FPS more muzzle velocity and nothing else. Bullet mass difference is insignificant and bore diameter is identical.

In the case of the .357SIG round vs the 124gr 9mm round, an appreciable 11% more velocity and insignificant 0.8% more mass result in 25.7% more kinetic energy (383.95 ft-lb vs 482.78 ft-lb).

A 230gr .45ACP round traveling at 875 FPS generates a whopping ... 390.92 ft-lb - or slightly more than the average standard pressure 9mm round. Interestingly, a 185gr .45ACP round at 1140FPS is much more energetic at 533.74 ft-lbs ... 30.3% more velocity and 19.5% less mass nets 36.5% more kinetic energy.

At the end of the day, handguns do not have the thousand-plus foot pounds of energy that intermediate "assault rifle" cartridges have to throw around (or the 2000+ ft-lb that battle rifle and hunting cartridges generate) with their far more reliable "one shot stop" numbers and devastating yawing, hydraulic, and fragmentation effects on the human body. Short of plugging holes in a goblin with a bone-crushing hand cannon inmagnum revolver cartridges with more considerably more wheaties than .44mag, handguns will always be weapons of short-range self-defense requiring good shot placement and more than a few hits to stop a determined attacker.

 

[Old Man of the Mountain]

Some of them thugs are as big as a gorilla, and twice as mean.

I think that some folks love the 9 mm in spite of the facts.

If it might not knock down a gorilla, it might not be a great choice in a defensive round.

 

[txinvestigator]

Some of them thugs are as big as a gorilla, and twice as mean.

I think that some folks love the 9 mm in spite of the facts.

In spite of what facts? The facts are 9mm is a fine defensive round. I carry a .45, but would certainly not feel undergunned with a 9.

If it might not knock down a gorilla, it might not be a great choice in a defensive round.

Well then, better carry a cannonball shooter; cause no handgun round is going to knock down a man, much less a gorilla.

 

[Old Man of the Mountain]

The .45 ACP has been known as "a man stopper" for many years. I don't recall hearing such remarks about the .40. Pretty much a personal preference thing for most people. I'll keep my .45 just in case.

I agree that there is nothing wrong with a .45 ACP caliber.

I am a big fan of the .357 caliber for the same reason- it works!

I always wanted a semi auto pistol in .357, so a while back I investigated the semi auto pistol calibers and decided that a .40 S&W was pretty similar to a .357 revolver caliber, so I went with that.

I have nothing at all against a .45, in fact I will likely buy a new 1911 within the next couple of years.

 

[coairBruce]

Keep the bad guys occupied

If the situation allows, keep the BG busy with whatever handgun you're carrying until one of your guys with a rifle can place the crosshairs.

 

[robocop10mm]

I guess I will chime in this controversial subject. No firearm projectile will "knock a man down" unless it will also knock down the shooter also. I believe the reason the .357 magnum has such a stellar record is partially because of the bullet profile (more blunt than the auto pistol bullets) and partially because the man who carries a 6 shot revolver cannot afford to spray and pray. Shot placement is the single biggest factor in ending a fight. Slow down because you only have 6 shots and make all six count. Too many folks think 15-17 rounds of whatever caliber are sure to win the day. If you cannot score a decent hit out the 15 shots , you have only made a bunch of noise.

On paper, 9, 40 and 45 are very close. Best case scenario to best case senario comparison is moot as they are nearly equal. Compare worst case scenarios. All three fail to expand and become expensive ball ammo. Which one is best? The biggest deepest hole. .45.

WTS, I carry a .40 for plainclothes work and a 10mm (180 GD @1300) for more serious work. I will not go knowingly into a fight with only and handgun. My rifle and 60 rounds of 64 grain Power Points will accompany me into a fight.

 

[M. Sage]

Notice that in this side by side comparison of terminal bullet performance, the 9 mm distance is ok, but the disruption does not come close to a good performing round.

That is why criminals have been mortally wounded, but not stopped by 9 mm rounds.

A determined criminal thug with a knife will take out a Police Officer with a 9 mm before the thug drops from the 9 mm wounds.

The rest of the projectiles are stoppers.

Wound them or stop them, the choice is yours!

P.S. I also believe that the main reason that the light little 9 mm bullets look ok on this test is because they did not hit any hard substance, like bone. A heavier bullet hitting bone does not stop as quickly as a light 9 mm bullet will.

There is so little difference between those that it's not even worth noting.

9mm, .357 (Sig or Magnum, doesn't matter), .38 Special, .40, .45ACP, even 10mm... There's so little difference in the damage they do, it doesn't matter in the real world. So long as the load you choose is reliable with the gun you choose, and penetrates to (or past) the 12" minimum when fired from the gun you choose... The caliber doesn't actually matter.

 

[Sidewayz]

There is so little difference between those that it's not even worth noting.

9mm, .357 (Sig or Magnum, doesn't matter), .38 Special, .40, .45ACP, even 10mm... There's so little difference in the damage they do, it doesn't matter in the real world. So long as the load you choose is reliable with the gun you choose, and penetrates to (or past) the 12" minimum when fired from the gun you choose... The caliber doesn't actually matter.

 

[45tex]

.357, .45 acp, Have a history of one shot stops.
.9mm has a history of not being as good.
Shot placement really is everything.

 

[jpainter187]

Good thread to subscribe to... I've been wondering the same thing