DK Firearms

.410 for Home Defense

The #1 community for Gun Owners in Texas

Member Benefits:

  • Fewer Ads!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • Steve_In_29

    Semper Fi
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jun 18, 2015
    315
    26
    St John's, AZ
    This is a re-edited version of a thread I posted on CalGuns. Here is a link to my original thread there if anyone wants to peruse the whole discussion. In it I go a bit more in depth on the ammo.

    Several years ago I bought a Mossberg .410 for my wife (4'10"/95lbs) to use but I gotta tell you I am really liking it myself.

    It is their Model 505 Youth (12"LOP/20" barrel/4+1). The small LOP on it is almost like a pistol grip but with the added bonus of my still being able to shoulder (barely) the weapon and to use a rifle butt cuff to hold an extra 9 rounds (see last picture).
    mossberg410youth_zps78152a19.png


    Load was Remington's 3" HD Ultimate Home Defense round. I got them from BassPro for $11ish for a box of 15rds IIRC. No recoil to speak of and 5 000 Buck pellets moving out at 1125fps. It's like emptying a 5 round .38 snubby into the bad guy with every pull of the trigger.

    Here are some pictures of how it preformed at 15 yards. The first is a pattern on cardboard while the other two are what it did to some old 3/4" plywood. The Leatherman handle is 3.5" long for perspective.

    The group of holes at the lower right is all five 000Buck pellets and the hole to the upper left is where the wad impacted. So that is 5 .36 caliber pellets in roughly a 1.5" group entering a bad guy at one time.
    410singleshotpatternoncardboard_zps0f12137e.jpg


    Plywood from front.
    410-4rds3inchtripleaughtbuck-thruplywood_zps988006a3.jpg


    Plywood from rear.
    410-4rds3inchtripleaughtbuckthruplywood-rearview_zpse1d36631.jpg


    Mossberg used to make several other models in .410 that would work nicely for HD as well but it appears they have discontinued the 20" versions (both pistol grip and full stocked) as well as the 18.5" pistol grip version of their .410s. Though you might find some on the used market.

    The Model 500E Cruiser (pistol grip/20" barrel/7+1rds)
    mossberg410persuader20inchpistolgrip_zps85c75442.png


    Model 500 Persuader 20"/7+1rds
    mossberg410persuader20inch_zps9dd50c9d.png


    Both were also available in 18.5" barrel versions with 5+1 capacity.

    Browning makes a version of their BPS in a HD configuration but interestingly enough only in .410. It makes an excellent gun for a leftie as it's bottom feed and eject. Though it's QUITE a bit more expensive ($800ish) then the Mossberg ($299 when I bought hers). For those of you wanting a Remington in .410 you will need to step up to the Wingmaster ($800ish) as they don't offer it in the Express line.

    As far as .410 ammo goes, I have found the HD rounds are roughly the same price as their 12/20G brethren and the birdshot is on par with Hi-Brass loads (all .410 is Hi-Brass) for the 12/20 as well.

    To help offset the ammo cost a bit, with the almost non-existent recoil of the .410 there is a little less need of practice as you aren't trying to learn to deal with the much greater recoil forces involved with 12/20G. NOT saying there is no need for practice, just that it's easier to master the smaller caliber.

    The 3" .410 HD load has 5 pellets of 000 buck vs the 9 smaller pellets of 00 buck in your average low recoil 2 3/4" 12G load. Both move out in the 1100-1300 fps range depending on the exact round. Winchester makes a 5 pellet 000 buck/1300fps load for the .410. I was corrected on this and it's actually their 2.5" 3 pellet load that hits 1300fps while the 5 pellet load is 1135fps.

    Here is a comparison of the weight the two rounds throw.
    .410: 000 buck = a .36" pellet weighing 70.0gr per pellet x 5 = 350.0gr
    12G: 00 buck = a .33" pellet weighing 53.8gr per pellet x 9 = 484.2gr

    It seems a person going with the .410 doesn't give up as much as some would believe. Especially when compared against the "Low Recoil" buckshot loads many 12G shooters go with to help tame the recoil.

    There is also a #4 buckshot load in .410 as well. Though I don't see it having as much purpose in the .410 as it does in the larger gauges. In the larger gauges #4 buck fills a need to provide denser pattern coverage but in .410 the spread of the buckshot isn't as big a concern, since the pellets leave the barrel single-file instead of side-by-side, which by its very nature results in a tighter pattern down range.

    Here are the results of #4 Buck on cardboard as well as the same piece of 3/4" plywood from the 000 Buck test. This was a 3" shell and the load consisted of 9 #4 Buck pellets at 1100FPS.

    I don't like the way they preformed as much as I do the 000 Buck. The spread was too wide and they didn't seem to plow through the board with the same authority. In my opinion (take it for what you paid for it) the #4 Buck isn't as valid a HD option in the .410 as it is in the 12G.

    This is the pattern on cardboard and like the last time the Leatherman handle is 3" long for scale.
    4104buckpattern-annotated_zpsa01a2a28.jpg


    Here is the affect on the 3/4" plywood from the front
    4104buckgroup-annotated_zps9abf9f15.jpg


    and from the rear.
    4104buckrear-annotated_zps5cef9701.jpg


    I recently bought an 18.5" barrel and 5+1 mag tube from Mossberg to make her shotgun a little handier and up the capacity. Cost was $102 shipped including a new mag spring. Here it is installed to replace the original 20" barrel and 4+1 mag and comparing the size between my Mossberg 505 .410 18.5" barrel, Escort 20G Youth with 20" barrel and ATI 12G with 18.5" barrel. The tiles are 12" square for reference.
    410%2020%20and%2012g%20shotguns_zpskn388jeu.jpg


    To conclude I am NOT saying the .410 is the equal of the 12/20G, merely that is is more then adequate for the job of a close confines HD situation.
     
    Last edited:

    Dawico

    Uncoiled
    Lifetime Member
    Rating - 100%
    14   0   0
    Oct 15, 2009
    38,007
    96
    Lampasas, Texas
    Sure why not! Any gun in the hand when you need it beats a locked safe full.
    Yup.

    Good write up Steve. The .410 is a decent little round with the right ammo and a great round to introduce new shooters with. While it is definitely not a replacement for a 12/20 gauge for many shooters, for the recoil sensitive it can be a good SD round. The popularity of the .410 handguns spawned some nice SD ammo to come into development.
     

    Sock Puppet

    Active Member
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 8, 2015
    565
    46
    I'm looking at one for the wife. I think it's something she could use and not get kicked on her butt.
     

    baboon

    TGT Addict
    Rating - 100%
    4   0   0
    May 6, 2008
    22,464
    96
    Out here by the lake!
    I'm looking at one for the wife. I think it's something she could use and not get kicked on her butt.

    Funny thing about heavy recoiling guns, if you wife was to actually need it for self defense her adrenaline would void out any felt recoil. I know this from my time shooting large caliber dangerous game guns in Africa.
     

    Steve_In_29

    Semper Fi
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jun 18, 2015
    315
    26
    St John's, AZ
    Funny thing about heavy recoiling guns, if you wife was to actually need it for self defense her adrenaline would void out any felt recoil. I know this from my time shooting large caliber dangerous game guns in Africa.
    I agree with you as far as the adrenaline factor. However while I don't know about Sandoval's wife, for my 4'10"/95lbs/60+YO wife it wasn't the recoil per se (she likes shooting a 1911), it was more the ability to actually lift and control the larger/heavier 12 and 20 gauge weapons. A weapon she could get off not only a first but follow up shots with as well, is MUCH preferable to one she might never get to fire at all.

    In regards the "adrenaline factor" it is why I personally think the Ruger LCP my friend owns is a better fit for such situations then my Taurus TCP738 is. This is due to the MUCH smoother/lighter trigger on my TCP as compared to his Ruger. While I haven't had an ND with the TCP it has surprised me several times at the range and I can see the possibility in an adrenaline situation of...ha(bang)lt!
     

    Steve_In_29

    Semper Fi
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jun 18, 2015
    315
    26
    St John's, AZ
    Yup.

    Good write up Steve. The .410 is a decent little round with the right ammo and a great round to introduce new shooters with. While it is definitely not a replacement for a 12/20 gauge for many shooters, for the recoil sensitive it can be a good SD round. The popularity of the .410 handguns spawned some nice SD ammo to come into development.
    Actually most of the ammo marketed for .410 pistols was already in existence before the introduction of the Judge and others. They were simply .410 shotgun loads remarked as "Judge".

    Here is a tid-bit I gleaned back when I first picked up the Mossberg. When Federal first offered the .410 shells as a Judge specific load, they simply remarked their existing .410 000Buck load and the boxes were marked as 1200fps, which was what the shells attained out of a shotgun. However after people complained about not attaining anywhere near that fps from the shorter barreled Judge, Federal remarked the boxes as 850fps. I have both style boxes and the shells themselves are exactly the same.

    Based on the correction to the packaging, it seems the load looses 350fps (almost a THIRD of its velocity) when fired out of the pistols. This explains why these loads preform so poorly in testing through pistols such as The Box O Truth posted in a review.

    I also have tried out the Winchester PDX in .410 and didn't like the results at anything other then point blank range. What I found was the flat disks catch the air and spread out much more then the 000 Buck pellets and the BB pellets didn't carry enough energy to penetrate deeply.

    Despite the fact that people will most likely purchase the PDX load to shoot in their Judge pistols, since Winchester (unlike Federal) doesn't specifically market it as a Judge load Winchester is able to retain the claimed 1200 FPS on their advertising. Given how Federal had to downgrade the FPS of their Judge specific loads from the original shotgun specs, I would venture that the PDX load isn't going to achieve the advertised 1200 FPS out of the Judge either. Otherwise that would be one STOUT load to touch off to achieve 1200 FPS out of a 2" barrel. After looking around I eventually found where it was reported the PDX round achieves 750 FPS out of a Judge.

    Personally I feel the .410 HD user is best served by one of the 000 Buck loads due to the greater mass of the pellets and the inherently tight patterning resulting from the pellets exiting the barrel single-file.
     

    ShootingTheBull

    Active Member
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jun 18, 2013
    569
    1
    The Box O' Truth testing is, with all due respect, highly misleading. In one test he used a cut-down shell, and in the other he used #4 buck, which is a pathetic load, and he tries to equate penetration through water jugs with penetration through gel, and gets it very, very, absurdly wrong. He claims that the 000 buckshot "penetrates about 4.5" of ballistic gel," and that's so incredibly wrong it's comical.

    The actual documented and proven facts are that the 5-pellet Federal 000 buck will penetrate an average of 17" through actual, genuine, properly-prepared, properly-tested ballistic gel. That buckshot doesn't travel at 1200 fps from a handgun, no... but it still throws 315 grains at about 800 fps, creating five wound channels with individual pellets that are all as big in diameter as a 9mm FMJ. 448 ft/lbs of energy and five distinct bullet paths, in a very tight pattern -- it's no joke. The 4-pellet 000 buckshot from a 2" barrel Public Defender penetrates up to 20"; it actually penetrates further than the 5-pellet load does because the lighter load (about 260 grains) travels faster.

    The PDX1 is a much less interesting round. The discs are basically pre-flattened buckshot balls. They pattern surprisingly tightly given their aerodynamic profile, but they don't penetrate as far as the buckshot balls do, and the BBs are largely worthless and spread out extremely quickly. I highly recommend the Federal (or NobelSport) buckshot rounds instead. The Nobel patterns almost as tightly as the Federal does, but it uses even bigger buckshot balls (.40" in diameter, and 90 grains apiece). The 3-inch shell sends four buckshot balls, 360 grains of lead, at 820 fps, and about 20" of gel, from a handgun.
     
    Last edited:

    Steve_In_29

    Semper Fi
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jun 18, 2015
    315
    26
    St John's, AZ
    I forgot to take some pictures last Sunday when my wife fired off two rounds of the Remington 3", 5 pellet, 000 Buck at a target 7 yards away. Each time all five pellets impacted within an approximately 1" circle.
     
    Last edited:

    Steve_In_29

    Semper Fi
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jun 18, 2015
    315
    26
    St John's, AZ
    The Box O' Truth testing is, with all due respect, highly misleading. In one test he used a cut-down shell, and in the other he used #4 buck, which is a pathetic load, and he tries to equate penetration through water jugs with penetration through gel, and gets it very, very, absurdly wrong. He claims that the 000 buckshot "penetrates about 4.5" of ballistic gel," and that's so incredibly wrong it's comical.

    The actual documented and proven facts are that the 5-pellet Federal 000 buck will penetrate an average of 17" through actual, genuine, properly-prepared, properly-tested ballistic gel. That buckshot doesn't travel at 1200 fps from a handgun, no... but it still throws 315 grains at about 800 fps, creating five wound channels with individual pellets that are all as big in diameter as a 9mm FMJ. 448 ft/lbs of energy and five distinct bullet paths, in a very tight pattern -- it's no joke. The 4-pellet 000 buckshot from a 2" barrel Public Defender penetrates up to 20"; it actually penetrates further than the 5-pellet load does because the lighter load (about 260 grains) travels faster.

    The PDX1 is a much less interesting round. The discs are basically pre-flattened buckshot balls. They pattern surprisingly tightly given their aerodynamic profile, but they don't penetrate as far as the buckshot balls do, and the BBs are largely worthless and spread out extremely quickly. I highly recommend the Federal (or NobelSport) buckshot rounds instead. The Nobel patterns almost as tightly as the Federal does, but it uses even bigger buckshot balls (.40" in diameter, and 90 grains apiece). The 3-inch shell sends four buckshot balls, 360 grains of lead, at 820 fps, and about 20" of gel, from a handgun.
    Not necessarily disagreeing with you on the Box-O-Truth.

    The Noble sport you reference gets mixed reviews for handgun use with many reporting the shells need to be forced into the cylinder and then poked out with a stick. Also J&G Sales lists the 2.5" version as NOT for use in pistols but the Lucky Gunner site says the 3" version is good for them. So it seems there is some conflicting information on them.

    Personally I would rather have the additional wound channel of a 5 pellet load over the slightly bigger pellets in the NodelSport. The Winchester load I mentioned earlier moves 5 000 pellets out at 1300fps. I was mistaken it's 1135 fps
     
    Last edited:

    ShootingTheBull

    Active Member
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jun 18, 2013
    569
    1
    The Noble sport you reference gets mixed reviews for handgun use with many reporting the shells need to be forced into the cylinder and then poked out with a stick. Also J&G Sales lists the 2.5" version as NOT for use in pistols but the Lucky Gunner site says the 3" version is good for them. So it seems there is some conflicting information on them.
    There were two versions of the NobelSport -- the older stuff that came in a blue box, that was not suitable for use in the .45/.410 chamber, they were only suitable for use in a .410 chamber. And there's the new stuff, which comes in a white box, which was redesigned to work properly in the handguns with a .45/.410 chamber. Use the blue-box stuff and you'll have problems, yes -- but the blue-box stuff is discontinued now, and has been for a couple of years. The white-box stuff works excellently with the Judge.

    The Winchester load I mentioned earlier moves 5 000 pellets out at 1300fps.
    I think you may have misread that -- on the Winchester site, they only list one .410 5-pellet 000 buckshot load, 5 pellets at 1135 fps. They have a 3-pellet load that claims 1300 fps, but the 5-pellet load is rated at 1135.

    And even if you used that Winchester 5-pellet load, that speed rating would be from a full-size shotgun; you certainly won't get anywhere near 1135 fps from a handgun.

    I've shot some of that Winchester stuff from a Judge, and I wouldn't recommend it over the Federal. Recoil is higher, yes (which does mean the pellets would hit harder) but the patterning is much worse, it spreads out much much faster. The Winchester uses softer lead, which deforms more, which makes the pellets less aerodynamic and causes them to spread out; also the Federal uses their FliteControl wad to insulate the pellets from the handgun's rifling, which keeps them from spinning and flying outwards. That's the same problem the Remington buckshot has -- softer lead, and wide patterns due to rifling spin. The Federal and the Nobel are largely insulated from that and hold much tighter patterns from the rifled-barrel handguns.

    I chrono'd the 3"-shell Nobel from a 6.5"-barrel Judge and also from an 18" barrel shotgun. It's rated at 820 fps on the box; from the 6.5" barrel it delivered approximately 820 fps, from the 18" barrel it reached 900 fps. That says to me that the shells are indeed optimized for the revolver, with a faster-burning powder that delivers as much as can be gotten from the shorter barrel, and not benefiting much from the longer barrel. If I was choosing a load for a longer-barrel shotgun, I'd probably go with the Winchester myself, as it isn't designed for handguns, it's designed for the long barrel.
     

    seeker_two

    My posts don't count....
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Jul 1, 2008
    11,498
    96
    That place east of Waco....
    I like the .410 pump gun for HD, especially if it's a dedicated HD gun. I use the Federal .410 for HD. Lots less recoil for the power.

    Question for the OP: how much did you pay for the 18.5" barrel? Mine has a 24" barrel, and I'm deciding if I want to cut it down or get a new barrel.
     

    Steve_In_29

    Semper Fi
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jun 18, 2015
    315
    26
    St John's, AZ
    I like the .410 pump gun for HD, especially if it's a dedicated HD gun. I use the Federal .410 for HD. Lots less recoil for the power.

    Question for the OP: how much did you pay for the 18.5" barrel? Mine has a 24" barrel, and I'm deciding if I want to cut it down or get a new barrel.
    As I mentioned in my post, I paid $102 shipped for the 18.5" barrel, 5+1 mag tube and mag spring from Mossberg.

    You can't just replace the barrel as the mag tube needs to match.
     

    Steve_In_29

    Semper Fi
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jun 18, 2015
    315
    26
    St John's, AZ
    There were two versions of the NobelSport -- the older stuff that came in a blue box, that was not suitable for use in the .45/.410 chamber, they were only suitable for use in a .410 chamber. And there's the new stuff, which comes in a white box, which was redesigned to work properly in the handguns with a .45/.410 chamber. Use the blue-box stuff and you'll have problems, yes -- but the blue-box stuff is discontinued now, and has been for a couple of years. The white-box stuff works excellently with the Judge.


    I think you may have misread that -- on the Winchester site, they only list one .410 5-pellet 000 buckshot load, 5 pellets at 1135 fps. They have a 3-pellet load that claims 1300 fps, but the 5-pellet load is rated at 1135.

    And even if you used that Winchester 5-pellet load, that speed rating would be from a full-size shotgun; you certainly won't get anywhere near 1135 fps from a handgun.

    I've shot some of that Winchester stuff from a Judge, and I wouldn't recommend it over the Federal. Recoil is higher, yes (which does mean the pellets would hit harder) but the patterning is much worse, it spreads out much much faster. The Winchester uses softer lead, which deforms more, which makes the pellets less aerodynamic and causes them to spread out; also the Federal uses their FliteControl wad to insulate the pellets from the handgun's rifling, which keeps them from spinning and flying outwards. That's the same problem the Remington buckshot has -- softer lead, and wide patterns due to rifling spin. The Federal and the Nobel are largely insulated from that and hold much tighter patterns from the rifled-barrel handguns.

    I chrono'd the 3"-shell Nobel from a 6.5"-barrel Judge and also from an 18" barrel shotgun. It's rated at 820 fps on the box; from the 6.5" barrel it delivered approximately 820 fps, from the 18" barrel it reached 900 fps. That says to me that the shells are indeed optimized for the revolver, with a faster-burning powder that delivers as much as can be gotten from the shorter barrel, and not benefiting much from the longer barrel. If I was choosing a load for a longer-barrel shotgun, I'd probably go with the Winchester myself, as it isn't designed for handguns, it's designed for the long barrel.
    Thanks for the information on the differences concerning the Nobel Sport ammo. Apparently there is still some of the blue box running around as that was what J&G Sales was offering.

    You are correct I misread the Winchester as I thought the stuff I had was 3" for some reason. That being said I still prefer the extra pellet in the 5 pellet loads over the 4 slightly larger ones in the Nobel Sport. That extra .36" wound channel will have a bigger affect I think then the .04" larger channels (.12" total) of the slightly larger pellets.

    This thread is about using a .410 shotgun and not a pistol for HD, so I'm not concerned with any loss from the short barrel of the Judge. I do appreciate the information though.
     

    shortround

    TGT Addict
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jan 24, 2011
    6,624
    31
    Grid 0409
    My "go to" shot gun is a break-open single shot .410.

    Loaded up with heavy shot it has dispatched every rattle snake that stalked the hen house.

    While all snakes are beneficial, the rattlers get a little testy when you try to collect eggs.

    I don't mind other snakes chasing the field mice and other vermin that feed on chicken scratch, but damned if I'll let a rattler bite me while collecting eggs.

    Be well.
     

    ROGER4314

    Been Called "Flash" Since I Was A Kid!
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Jul 11, 2009
    10,444
    66
    East Houston
    I like the .410 pump shotguns and have owned several over the years....all Mossbergs. I reload .410 3" shells and that beats the high cost of the little shotgun shells. I have never fired 2 1/2" .410 shells.

    Are .410 shotguns lethal?
    I was in Baxter Springs Kansas when the answer to that question became crystal clear.

    Mr. R and Mr W were next door neighbors who just didn't get along. One family put up a HUGE fence made of metal siding between the properties. The kids from the other family would lay on the ground and kick the metal fence to piss off the other guys.

    One night, it degenerated into a fist fight between Mr R and Mr W. During the scuffle, Mr R yelled to his son to "Get The Gun!" The kid reappeared with a .410 shotgun and snuffed Mr W with a single round.

    Mr. W was DEAD RIGHT THERE! It was a very small town and the commotion of the killing got everyone in town driving up and down the street. I was there because I was about a block away when this happened.

    Are .410 shotguns lethal? You can bet your butt.....YES!

    Flash
     
    Last edited:

    Texas42

    TGT Addict
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Nov 21, 2008
    4,752
    66
    Texas
    Interesting thread. My only issue with the .410 is that a 20 guage can do everything and and more (with some more recoil...but not much).
    And an AR can do it all better with virtually no recoil.
     
    Every Day Man
    Tyrant

    Support

    Forum statistics

    Threads
    116,120
    Messages
    2,953,351
    Members
    34,941
    Latest member
    Irowland1994
    Top Bottom