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51% Sign

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  • Bud-9

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    I was in a restaurant the other day and this time I noticed they had a 51% sign behind the counter. What made this strange, at least to me, is that they sell very little alcohol. So my question is, Can they post a 51% sign even if they meet the 51% in alcohol sells? Thanks
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    KAK

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    Was it behind the bar? There is no question that the bar makes more than 51% on alcohol. Maybe the owner lets you carry throughout the rest of the restaurant.

    On another note, these blanket laws about carrying in places that sell alcohol are ridiculous. I need to disarm because someone else wants to get drunk? Thats fucking dumb.
     

    txinvestigator

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    Obedience to the sign is NOT required. The law simply requires that you cannot carry where the business derives 51% or more of its revenue for the sale of alcohol for on premise consumption. It the give you a defense to prosecution IF there is no sign posted.

    The Govt code requires that a 51% place post the sign, and the TABC code requires it. The Govt code has no penalty if a place is posted 51% that is NOT actually a 51% place. The TABC code does. TABC Calculations determine if the place is 51%.

    You can tell if a place is really 51% by looking at the publicly posted TABC license. If the license reads "Sign= Blue" they are not 51%, if it reads, "sign= Red, then they are 51%.

    A call to your local TABC office will result in them being checked and required to be in compliance.
     

    TexasRedneck

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    Obedience to the sign is NOT required. The law simply requires that you cannot carry where the business derives 51% or more of its revenue for the sale of alcohol for on premise consumption. It the give you a defense to prosecution IF there is no sign posted.

    Really? Tell you what, my friend - YOU ignore that sign and spend the money defending yourself. Me, I'll obey the sign, contest it if justified - but until a lawful authority causes it to be removed, I'll follow it.


    You can tell if a place is really 51% by looking at the publicly posted TABC license. If the license reads "Sign= Blue" they are not 51%, if it reads, "sign= Red, then they are 51%.

    A call to your local TABC office will result in them being checked and required to be in compliance.

    Exactly. Let the law do the fighting for ya. Because that's really one of the reasons that it's there.
     

    txinvestigator

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    Really? Tell you what, my friend - YOU ignore that sign and spend the money defending yourself. Me, I'll obey the sign, contest it if justified - but until a lawful authority causes it to be removed, I'll follow it.

    If the business is not 51% there will be nothing to defend. The law does not prohibit me from carrying where there is a 51% sign, it prohibits me from carrying in a 51% location. I have seen non-51% places posted, and carry there is not unlawful.

    Texas Penal Code
    Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER. (b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's person:
    (1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;
    Nothing is even mentioned about a sign. In the last session, we got a defense if there was no sign posted;

    (k) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (b)(1) that the actor was not given effective notice under Section 411.204, Government Code.

    411.204 describes the 51% sign.


    Therefore, it is NOT unlawful to carry into a place that is not 51% even if the place is posted 51%.


    I walked into an Alberton's once and saw a 51% posted. I also was going into a Hooters in Beaumont once and saw a 51% sign. I placed my handgun back in my trunk. On my way out, I checked the license and they were NOT in fact, a 51% location.
     

    Castrolr1

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    i actually saw this the first time this past weekend.... Nothing posted on the door or the outside of the resturant.. but on the wall behind the bar
     

    pyrat

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    An interesting question. It seems logical that the bar area might be considered off limits, but the dining area not off limits. When I took the CHL class in Florida, they do not have 30.06 or 51 like restrictions, but the instructor stated something similar.

    Here's a link to a comprehensive compilation of Texas gun laws from which the following quotes were taken for those who wish to do further study.

    http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/tchlaws0102.pdf

    GENERAL CODE
    GC §411.204. NOTICE REQUIRED ON CERTAIN PREMISES.
    (a) A business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter
    25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, and that derives 51
    percent or more of its income from the sale of alcoholic beverages for
    on-premises consumption as determined by the Texas Alcoholic
    Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage
    Code, shall prominently display at each entrance to the business
    premises a sign that complies with the requirements of Subsection (c).
    (b) A hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code,
    or a nursing home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety
    Code, shall prominently display at each entrance to the hospital or
    nursing home, as appropriate, a sign that complies with the requirements
    of Subsection (c) other than the requirement that the sign
    include on its face the number "51".
    (c) The sign required under Subsections (a) and (b) must give
    notice in both English and Spanish that it is unlawful for a person
    licensed under this subchapter to carry a handgun on the premises.
    The sign must appear in contrasting colors with block letters at least
    one inch in height and must include on its face the number "51" printed
    in solid red at least five inches in height. The sign shall be displayed in
    a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.
    (d) A business that has a permit or license issued under the Alcoholic
    Beverage Code and that is not required to display a sign under
    this section may be required to display a sign under Section 11.041 or
    61.11, Alcoholic Beverage Code.
    (e) This section does not apply to a business that has a food and
    beverage certificate issued under the Alcoholic Beverage Code.
    PENAL CODE
    PC §46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE
    HOLDER. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license
    holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person
    under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,
    and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.
    (b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally,
    knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority
    of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of
    whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's
    person:
    (1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued
    under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, if
    the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or
    service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined
    by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section
    104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;
    Subch. A GENERAL PROVISIONS
    §6.4. NOTICE REQUIRED ON CERTAIN PREMISES. (a) Notice: The
    following establishments shall prominently display an appropriate notice
    at each entrance to the premises, to state that it is unlawful to carry
    a handgun on the premises:
    (1) a business that has a permit or license issued under Alcoholic
    Beverage Code, Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, and that derives 51%
    or more of its income from the sale of alcoholic beverages for onpremises
    consumption as determined by the Texas Alcoholic
    Beverage Commission under Alcoholic Beverage Code, §104.06.
    (2) a hospital licensed under the Health and Safety Code, Chapter
    241.
    (3) a nursing home licensed under the Health and Safety Code,
    Chapter 242.
    (b) Text. The sign must state that it is unlawful for a person licensed
    under the Act to carry a handgun on the premises. The notice must
    also be posted in Spanish.
    (c) Visibility. The sign must appear in contrasting colors with block
    letters at least one inch in height and must include on its face the
    number "51" printed in solid red at least 5 inches in height. The sign
    shall be displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public
    from outside or immediately inside each public, service, and employee
    entrance. Signs required by this section are not required to be posted
    by fire exits, interior entrances, or entrances to individual resident
    rooms.

    §6.44. PLACES PROHIBITED: FELONY VIOLATIONS. A license
    holder may not carry a handgun on or about the license holder’s person
    under authority of the Act in the following places:
    (1) On the premises of a business that has a permit or license
    issued under Alcoholic Beverage Code, Chapters 25, 28, 32, 69, or
    74, if the business derives 51% or more of its income from the sale or
    service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption. Posting
    is required by the Act, but an establishment’s failure to post is not a
    statutory defense to the license holder. Violation is a third degree
    felony under Texas Penal Code, §46.035.
     
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    Aug 17, 2010
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    Austin
    An interesting question. It seems logical that the bar area might be considered off limits, but the dining area not off limits. When I took the CHL class in Florida, they do not have 30.06 or 51 like restrictions, but the instructor stated something similar.

    That statute is outdated. Now, failure to post the 51 sign is a defense to prosecution.

    Also, the 51% is calculated from the total revenue of the establishment. You can carry in a restaurant with a bar area as long as the whole business makes less than 51% of revenue from ab sales.
     

    txinvestigator

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    Wahl, ah tell ya what, buttercup. You go ahead an' tote yer hoglaid into that place with the 51% sign, mosey over to their license, an' as ya see the RED print...figger out how yer gonna git outta it!

    You are right, the danger is in ignoring the sign and finding out the place was actually 51%. However, I was not worried about the Albertsons, and at the Hooters the next time I ate there I knew the sign was bogus.
     

    OldCurlyWolf

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    Sep 22, 2010
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    Tulia
    I was in a restaurant the other day and this time I noticed they had a 51% sign behind the counter. What made this strange, at least to me, is that they sell very little alcohol. So my question is, Can they post a 51% sign even if they meet the 51% in alcohol sells? Thanks

    Check W/TABC to be sure. I have before. It seems that any place that has a business license and a TABC license gets sent one of those with a 30.05 and a 30.06 sign from the state. Many mistakenly post the 51% sign.
     

    DoubleActionCHL

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    Jun 23, 2008
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    Spring, Texas
    Look for the liquor license, which should be prominently posted. If it says SIGN = RED in the middle, TABC considers the establishment 51%.

    If Redneck was right, the Jared's Jewelers in San Antonio that posts 51% would be off limits.
     

    TexasRedneck

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    Look for the liquor license, which should be prominently posted. If it says SIGN = RED in the middle, TABC considers the establishment 51%.

    If Redneck was right, the Jared's Jewelers in San Antonio that posts 51% would be off limits.

    You KNOW Jared's doesn't serve alcohol. If they did, until I was SURE they had posted it in error, I'd damned well not enter it armed. You are, of course, free to do whatever you wish.

    Feel better now, Classy?
     

    DoubleActionCHL

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    Jun 23, 2008
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    You KNOW Jared's doesn't serve alcohol. If they did, until I was SURE they had posted it in error, I'd damned well not enter it armed. You are, of course, free to do whatever you wish.

    Feel better now, Classy?

    You know, I'm usually very conservative when it comes to matters like this. If the 30.06 is close to being compliant, I recommend that students honor it. When the place looks like a bar, smells like a bar, etc., you should probably treat it like a bar. However, when a restaurant is clearly not a 51% establishment, yet is improperly posting, I don't see it as an issue. Concealed is concealed. Unless there's a metal detector and backscatter X-ray scanner on the way to the restroom, you shouldn't have a problem. If you have to use your firearm to protect your life, do you really care about the TABC classification?

    By the way, how do you think Jared's gets poor saps to pay those ridiculous prices for their jewelry? ALCOHOL!!!!!
     

    TexasRedneck

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    Thing is, since I don't know the business receipts of most businesses I enter, if it serves alcohol and is posted 51%, I'm gonna figger they're tellin' the truth until I KNOW different. The jails are populated with folks that didn't THINK what they were doin' was illegal.
     
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